PatMc

Its warm in Florida...put the old fuel in a 5 gallon bucket and leave it in the sun...it will be gone in a day.

Mark Salvetti

Yikes, $38K. What added up that fast besides the motor? Other than maybe brakes, I can't imagine a 55K mile car requires that much work. Maybe to get it back to new, but you can probably wait on shocks and bushings.

It would be good to see the leakdown numbers. Assuming two cylinders have high leakdown, the next question is where the air is escaping (crankcase, intake, exhaust)?

Mike is right - you need to get it running. Do the brakes (which you should be able to do yourself, big savings there) and get the engine running. Don't panic about the leakdown until you have driven it for a while. If it needs a top end and you don't want to spend that kind of money, you'll be able to sell it for a lot more running than not, even with the engine work needed.

Mark

david05111

So, I asked them about this. In essence, "could the leakdown test be wrong? perhaps the valves have carbon build-up or are out of adjustment and aren't sealing properly so that it's failing the test? Or maybe the seals/gaskets are all dried out and they'd improve with it running and driving?"

The answer I got was basically no. He said that they hooked up the air line to it and manually closed the valves. The air that is escaping out of the real problem cylinder is apparently ejecting it (along with oil) at the head itself. I'd think that could be a head gasket problem, perhaps that it's dried out, but I'm honestly not that technically savvy on the engine side of things to know 100% what's going on.

I think he suspects that the head bolt on that side of the motor is shot, which certainly wouldn't be abnormal for these engines. It has been sitting for like 20 years in a semi-humid Florida environment even if it has been garaged. And the bolts do end up corroding and breaking in those conditions, so I read.

I'd love nothing more than to tell them to fix the fuel system and start it up and see how it fares. I'm just not sure if that's prudent, and whether it might make things worse.

Here are the leakdown test numbers.

CYL 1: 1% loss from crankcase
CYL 2: 2% loss from crankcase
CYL 3: 1% loss from crankcase
CYL 4: 3% loss between head and cyl
CYL 5: 3% loss between head and cyl
CYL 6: 23% loss between head and cyl



The numbers are posted above. Some stuff would seem to be (or is) elective on the list, but other stuff probably isn't. Here's a rough price breakdown.

Fuel System Rebuild (gas tank cleaned, lines cleaned): $2100
Brakes (new rotors, replace lines, install my calipers): $1200
Motor rebuild (parts and labor): $14500
Air conditioning conversion and charge: $6300
Tires (mounted and balanced): $1100
Shocks: $2200
Tie rods and alignment: $1500
Oil cooler and line kit: $4050
Shifter Coupling: $630
Front inner and outer bearings: $750
Transmission seals: $330
Full Detail (outsourced): $450

+ taxes and fees obviously.


Now, the air conditioning is obviously elective. I'm taking that off the list immediately at $6300. I'll either find a few cans of R12 or I'll just go without. I think I could handle the shocks, bushings, wheel bearings, tie rods, and maybe the shifter coupling. Some of that may be elective, I'm not sure. The brakes I could also handle myself. I took the calipers off in the first place. It can't be too hard to replace the lines, throw new rotors on, and re-install the calipers.

But stuff like the oil cooler and lines and transmission seals are out of my wheelhouse I think, and I'm not really sure they're elective. I haven't looked at the oil lines myself, but I suspect that like everything else, they get brittle and become a liability with age -- especially when not in use. And since those probably require the motor to be dropped to replace, that's probably something I also can't tackle.

I think I could cut about $10-11k out of the bill. Maybe more, maybe less.

More questions to follow below.

david05111

A few more questions:

1) Why would a bad head bolt, for instance, require a complete head rebuild? Wouldn't it simply be possible to just take the head off, replace the bolt, replace the head gasket, adjust the valves, and re-install for significantly less? I just can't wrap my head around the top end needing to be really tinkered with when it only has 55k miles on it.

2) The car has a CIS fuel system. The shop seems to suggest that if I have the engine apart anyway, it might be prudent to go to a true EFI system conversion. They say the throttle response will be significantly better, I'll pick up a LOT of HP and torque (they're saying that with the re-built head -- ported and polished -- and the conversion I could be looking at like 340-350 HP up from the 180-200 stock), better reliability and efficiency, etc. And they recommend that over a carb conversion.

Frankly, I don't know what to make of those claims. Certainly if it were to be that much of a difference, it would seem prudent to do that conversion at the same time. But I don't know if that's remotely accurate. They say the conversion is about $5000. That doesn't sound too bad since I'm saving a bunch by deleting the AC conversion. But again, I haven't a clue whether that's accurate or largely sales puffery. Having had a modern 3.0 liter BMW motor that made about 225HP, the 340-350 claim seems dubious at best. But an E46 M3 with the 3.2 made 333, so who knows? 100+ hp per liter out of an 80s car sounds borderline nonsensical. Maybe with forced induction.

I'm not really considering it. I'd rather just go with the current system that's in there I think, but I thought I'd raise the issue. I have some nightmares about the thing never being tuned right, issues with cold and hot starts, etc. if the new ecu isn't tuned properly. It sounds like something I could be chasing for years.

I had a few other questions, but my mind is a blank right now. Maybe tomorrow.

darylbowden

While an EFI conversion will definitely be a giant difference, there is no way on earth where simply swapping to MOTEC (or similar) and doing light head work is going to result in 350hp. If you go down that route, you're probably talking ITBs, new cams, all sorts of stuff and before you know it you will have easily spent 60k on the motor and tuning it. I really can't envision a world in which it would make sense to do a MOTEC conversion unless you're going to build a proper high-hp motor, but like I said that is a giant amount of money (and I'm being VERY conservative above, you can easily spend 10k tuning a motec system). There is almost nothing on earth more expensive than air-cooled horsepower.

rstarga

Except for 6 the leak downs look good for a cold non running engine. If indeed a head stud has broken they can do that on one cylinder.
A new gas tank is around $1000 and not a big deal to take out and replace, a days work at home at most. Usually just a few hours. Replace rubber fuel lines at same time, run Techron through for a few tank loads.
Brakes you can handle
Don't convert A/C as that system doesn't have enough condensing capacity to use R134
Buy the tires from Tire Rack or locally and the shop will install and balance. I've used Costco for Bridgestones or Firestones.
You won't know if shocks are bad till driven, so that can wait and another simple job using replacement inserts
You don't have a front oil cooler?
The coupler can be rebuilt for the cost of the plastic inserts or buy a new one for much less than 630
Do the front bearings have play?
How do you know the transmission is leaking until you run it for a while.

If you don't have the time pay the piper, but it seems that a 55k mile car should not be all that worn out. You can attack these things in an orderly fashion.
My initial reaction would be to look for another shop, some of those prices sound steep. and it seems they are looking for additional work.

rstarga

1) You are correct
2) that would not be prudent, EFI systems will lead you down a rabbit hole of tuning specs etc.A project for a tinkerer. CIS is adequate and the factory used it for many years.

Again it really seems like this shop sees you have money to spend.
Get the car running and evaluate what work is really necessary.
As far as the interior, wipe the interior down with some white vinegar or Griots interior cleaner to kill the mold then follow up with leather or vinyl conditioners, lots available from Griots, Lexol, Meguiars. Clay bar and wax the exterior, maybe not concours but it will clean up nicely.

Mark Salvetti

Agree. That shop lost a lot of credibility when they claimed all that HP gain from just EFI.

But if we are to believe them when they say that there is a leak between the head and the cylinder, then the engine really does need to come out. Probably means one or more broken head studs around that cylinder. Really common on the 3L engines, and it's not a function of mileage.

To confirm, you could ask them to pull the two lower valve covers. Any broken head studs will fall out. I was talking to a guy at a show recently, and when he had his SC engine rebuilt they found 10 (out of 12!) broken lower head studs.

All the lower head studs on the exhaust side should be replaced. Highly likely any unbroken ones could snap when you retorque the heads or after the engine warms up. I suppose if there are no broken studs on that leaky cylinder you could ask them to retorque the head bolts. You got nothing to lose. That can be done with the engine in the car. But don't be surprised if the stud(s) snap then.

Lots of labor to get the heads off, as the camshaft carrier sits on top. So the cams need to come out too. Here is a good video showing engine teardown. Heads come off at about the 15 minute mark:
Valves and valve guides may be fine after only 55K miles, but the leak could have caused damage to the sealing surfaces between the head and the cylinder. The loose head can chatter. So you'll need to get them inspected and possibly machined. Once the heads go out for work, it just makes sense to renew the valves.

I think $15K for the engine work is about right, but I would be cautious about what that includes. You want all new head studs and find out what head work is included.

Don't understand why you need $4K for an oil cooler. Most of the lines are metal. It may be replacing the stock trombone cooler and short hoses with the later Carrera radiator style, but that price is about double what that should cost, and you could do it yourself for about $1K I think.

Here is a good video on CIS injection rebuild from the same guys that did the engine teardown:
Sorry about the bad news on the engine, but rstarga is right. Do the mandatory engine work, the rest can be done gradually and may not need to be done at all. And if you are reasonably handy, you can do the brakes yourself.

Mark

david05111

Yeah that's what I'm afraid of.


The more I think about them fixing the one cylinder, I wonder if that's actually prudent -- assuming they could. Since they would already be in there, having all of them done would seem to be the smart move.


The fuel system I think I'm going to leave to them. As much as I might want to save some money on that by either just swapping out the tank and the lines myself, the reality is that if they're going to do the engine work, they'll likely need a working fuel system. And since the car is over there already, I'll probably just have them do it. It would cost me $350 just to have the car towed home, then back again anyway.

I already removed the A/C from the list. I'll find a few cans of R12 and try to charge it. If it doesn't hold or doesn't work, I'll live without A/C. The price is just too steep to consider it.

The tire price didn't seem that unreasonable to me at around $1100. They're Continentals, which aren't amazing I suppose. But the only tires that TireRack has listed for this car are Pirellis and just the tires alone from them are $1362. And that doesn't include mounting and balancing.

I'll probably handle the shocks myself. I've done them on my trucks before. The only question I really have about those in my head is whether or not there are proprietary tools required for the job, since it is Porsche. I need to do some more research on that. The same thing goes for the tie rods, the bushings, etc.

Regarding the oil cooler, I'm not sure what the story is with it yet. It was on the list, but I haven't had a chat to discuss why it needs to be replaced, along with the lines. The car has been sitting, so I haven't jacked it up improperly for instance to crush the lines. I suppose the cooler could be really rusty from age, but I'm not sure. Going to do some homework on that. The issue on that though is that even if I wanted to do that repair in my garage, the lines themselves may be really hard to swap out with the engine in the car. I suspect that if the engine has to come out anyway, doing the lines then may be the best solution. $4000+ is a pretty large chunk of change for doing so though. I'm going to ask about it.

The shifter coupler I don't know much about. I had put it on my list of optional things that I could handle myself, but I don't know how to access it, how it's serviced, etc. If it's simple enough that I don't have to drop the transmission to work on it, it shouldn't be an issue for me to work on. For instance, if it can be accessed from inside the car, that would be fine. I have no reference for the state of it, since I don't know what they're supposed to feel like.

I also don't know too much about the bearings, since I didn't have the car up on a lift. I expect they're an optional fix, but the car was driven in the rain and sat in the garage for years. Maybe they're just really rusty and in poor shape. Something I'll ask about.

As for the transmission, not sure. Again, suspect that's optional for now.






The detail doesn't bother me too much. The paint has some oxidation on it I think, so I want a pro to go over that since it's single stage (I think). I want that properly done. As for the interior, my allergies can be a bear, so I want the inside cleaned up, steamed, extracted where necessary, etc. The car hasn't been really taken care of in decades. I don't mind paying the money to have that rectified.

I think it's important that I make clear that I may have misunderstood what the shop was saying regarding a conversion to EFI and the numbers that could be expected. Maybe he meant after a complete build, I'm not sure. It was a somewhat brief discussion on that topic, so I wouldn't slate them too hard over that. I could be wrong.

The oil cooler was addressed above. I'll ask about it.

I'm going to get a more thorough breakdown of what exactly is going into the engine work. If they're going to machine the head anyway, my inclination is to have it ported and polished as well -- assuming it isn't that much more to do so. The details I have on the engine rebuild right now are as follows:

Part -- Oil Filter Kit: $36
Part -- 5W40 Liquid Molly: $104
Part -- Engine Cylinder head gasket set: $405
Part -- ARP Head Studs: $990
Part -- Piston Rings: $270
Part -- Spark Plug Wire Set: $450
Part -- Misc. parts, gaskets, pumps: $650

Labor -- Valve Job and replace valves: $1490
Labor -- Leak Down Test: $570
Labor -- Remove, Install, and Rebuild Motor: $9500

Total: $14500 ish

The last one isn't broken down at all, even though I know it includes sending the head off to the machine shop.

rstarga

I would really verify that you have broken studs, when they torque the heads before a valve adjustment they can easily see if any studs are broken. If that is the case the price above sounds ok for a complete top end job.
I highly recommend you not use any 5W40 oil. It is way to thin for an air-cooled engine. Valvoline VR1 or Mobil1 15w-50 both have enough ZDDP for our engines. A bit surprising the shop does not know that. Lots of other 20W-50 oils around with enough ZDDp but most use the above mentioned.
Porting and polishing is not really worth the trouble IMHO, not any noticeable gain on a street engine.
If they are pulling the engine and gear box might as well get a new clutch pack at the same time and change put a new front seal in.
The coupling is accessible from inside the car in the panel in front of the rear seats. Since they are pulling the gearbox they will have to disconnect that so they can rebuild it or pop a new one in along with new bushings for the shifter mechanism and the throttle rod, not expensive and pretty quick to do.
Make sure and pull a vacuum on the a/c before adding r12, its over $130 dollars a pound now.
Once fixed you will enjoy it for years.

Mark Salvetti

No special tools for the shocks. You just need to see what front struts you have. If they are bright green, they are Bilstein. Otherwise they are Boge. Pretty common to use Bilstein inserts regardless of the strut, but the part number for an insert that fits the Boge is different than if your strut is also Bilstein. Rear shocks are conventional (not inserts).

Turbo tie rods are fairly straightforward as well.

Pelican Parts has some decent tutorials, although a bit dated now. Not a bad place to start:
Shocks: https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart.../63-Shocks.htm
Tie Rods: https://www.pelicanparts.com/techart...ie_Rod_Kit.htm

A lot of what you need to do is covered in this book:
Mark

GothingNC

My condolences on your Dad passing away :-(

Looks like you have a long road ahead and patience is the key. Do you have a local PCA group in your area that may have a few members pitch in with time or ideas to help put getting the Targa on the road?

3.6 Swap would be nice.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...3-6-motor.html

david05111

Great post, thank you. They're going to have a look at the studs. They got me underneath the car today and showed me where it's leaking from. I green-lighted them starting work on the motor, so they'll start poking at it a bit. Should know something on that in the next week or two.

I'm making a note about the oil to discuss with them.

Regarding the port and polish, I talked to them today about that and they said that they'll discuss it with the head guy. Apparently he's a friend of the shop and they think he'll cut a nice deal on it if I want it done. I told them to quote it. Can't hurt to ask.

Not terribly long before he put the car away in the garage, my father had a new clutch put in the car. If I recall the story correctly, he "lost" it in midtown Manhattan one afternoon and drove the car out of the city back to his home in White Plains. He said that he clutch-less shifted it until he had to come to a stop, would pull it into neutral, turn the car off, throw it in first, and start it, taking right off again. It's how he handled the toll booths. Not the smartest thing to do probably, but it beat waiting hours for the tow truck and getting it towed to his shop. I bet the clutch that's in the car doesn't have more than 15k miles on it. It should be good to go. While I'd have them explore it a bit as a sort of preventative thing, the bill is already racing up and I'd like to avoid what I can.

They say the shifter coupling is in pretty bad shape and that it "won't shift for long". My buddy has a garage with lifts about 1000 feet from this shop though, so I'll probably get the car there somehow and tackle little issues like the coupling since I get the impression it's not a huge job.

I'll need to look up how to test the A/C system as you suggest. I'm familiar with searching for vacuum leaks, but I've never messed around with an A/C system. Something I'll definitely explore.



That's good news. As long as there's a guide out there, I can probably handle it with a buddy. I had visions of some proprietary tools being involved and causing headaches.


Thank you for your kind thoughts. He was a great man, and I miss him dearly.

I'm sure there is a local PCA here; Brumos tended to attract enthusiasts with everything they touched. I just haven't had a chance to really look into that. I do have a few friends with newer 911s, however. One of them has a 997.1 GT3RS, a 991 GT3RS, a GT3 Cup Car, and a GT2 Cup Car. And an entire garage with lifts and all the tools to keep them running right for his track sessions. He lives a pretty amazing life, and has been helpful with mine so far.

david05111

UPDATE

I went by the shop today and had a look at the car up on the lift. First of all, it looks great under there. Barely any sign of rust whatsoever. The bolts and everything are pristine.

I had a look at the issues that had presented themselves with the engine. I told them to move ahead with the project on that front, so they'll start ordering parts and getting that moving. Along with that, they're going to do the fuel system.

The estimate mentioned the oil lines. I got under and looked at them and they're hard as a rock -- worryingly so. I basically authorized them to replace the lines, but they said the cooler itself looked just fine so they're going to try to find just the lines instead of the whole kit and send me a revised estimate on that. So between the fuel system being cleaned up, the engine top end being rebuilt, and the oil lines being replaced, the motor side of the car should be pretty rock-solid.

Alongside those things, I authorized them to get new tires on it and to fix the transmission seal. It was leaking pretty badly, and I doubt that it's simply a case of it being dried out and needing some use to bring it back.

I told them to hold off on the brakes, tie rods, shocks, shifter coupling, and wheel bearings. I scrapped the A/C conversion entirely. If it doesn't work with a few cans of R12, I'll live without it.

Now, with that all said, I have some more questions:

1) Let's talk tires. He mentioned something about continentals. I searched tire rack and the only tires I could find for the car were Pirellis. It's not a race car, so I don't need Pilot Sports or anything that high-performance. Funnily enough, I'm more interested in looks. Some 911s I've seen seem to have wider/fatter tires on them, which gives them a slightly more aggressive look in my eyes. I'm not sure if people go with slightly wider tires than factory spec on these fuchs wheels or not. But I definitely need advice in the entire area around tires, so any information and advice is so welcome.

2) Regarding ride height, I understand these cars were set higher than their European counterparts to meet HTSA standards. I don't want the car "slammed", but I would like it to be adjusted to European spec. I did some research and it looks like the front is adjusted by one bolt on each side, which sounds incredibly easy. I don't know anything about adjusting the rear ride height though and could use some information on that. I'm not sure how difficult it is to do it, if it needs different parts, etc.

3) I want to swap the exhaust on the car. I like the sort of visceral sound of an air-cooled 911. I found this video online, and it's basically exactly what I'm looking for.


The owner of the car (who made the video) said that the setup is Dansk SSI heat exchangers and an M&K Sport 2-in-1-out muffler. I think that's what I'm going to do. BUT, I did some research and I understand there are two manufacturers of stainless heat exchangers/headers for this: Dansk and SSI. Most of the information I can find on the subject comes from some years back and suggests that SSI is quite-simply the gold-standard. The welds are perfect, etc. Dansk was apparently fine, but theirs wasn't 100% stainless steel or something. As I read on, I read a few things that indicate that Dansk bought some of SSI's old machining and that their quality might go up as a result. But I confess, I can't find anything definitive on the subject.

I'd like some advice in this regard. From what I can tell online, the Dansk ones are $800-1000 cheaper than the SSIs -- that's stainless for both, apparently. Are the SSIs still the gold-standard? Are the Dansk still solid? I could pay for most of the M&K muffler with the savings by going with the Dansk instead, but I want to be prudent on this.

I know I have more questions, but it's so late that I can't remember them. Thanks for what you can offer on these.

wingless

GREAT you are making progress.

The vehicle tire decal and the manual both specify 185/70VR15 front / 215/60VR15 rear for my 1986 911 Targa.

The tires that were on my vehicle are Pirelli P Zero Nero tires in 205/55ZR15 front and 225/60ZR15 back. These tires are nice / fine and the size looks appropriate for the vehicle. I wouldn't go bigger.

These Pirelli Cinturato CN-36 tires look more like tires from when the vehicle was built and have design features that appear appropriate for the older vehicles.