kach22i

Everyone seems to agree that upgrading to SSI's and sport mufflers or something called a pre-muffler willl give you a performance increase. So...........

Imagine this: Some shop (proclaimed Porsche expert) drills holes in your heat exchanges after your rear oil cooler fails. They claim they did it to let the oil drain out that got in there (how the heck could that happen anyway?).

So now you have heat exchangers with holes in them, and oh yea they take off your blower motor and hoses and don't replace them because you dont want to spend another $300.00. They cover some of the openings with "Aluminum foil" no kidding!

They say the exchangers will smoke a lot at first as the old oil burns off, they did their best to steam clean them. However they seem to smoke after heating up real nice and stoping for a while. Also you can see old oil in places, making you wonder how bad was it before?

After driving the car a couple of weekends you become increasing convinced that low end power is compromised, and the RPM needle just dosn't flick up to red line like it used to. Yea I took it back once, a three week wait, they re-did the ignition timing for some improvement. They did not touch the cam timing from chain tensioner upgrade they did.

Drum roll.......the question is: If finely engineered and installed heat exchangers give you a performance increase, then drilling holes and leaving holes open will degrade performance, right?

I kid you not, this is a true story.

The reason I am asking, is it will take more money and grief to figure out if the shop also screwed up the cam timing. I am hoping its only the damage they did to my old and leaky carbon monoxide belching heat exchangers for the performance degration.

Any theories out there?

PS: The mechanic that repairs my other non-Porsche car drove my 1977 911S 2.7L, before and after the other shop did the work. He said I have a claim, there is a definate loss of power. However there are so many details and variables to this story, that I want to exhaust all posiblities. I hate being wrong, I hate being the bad guy.

JackOlsen

Are we talking about drilling into the exhaust pipes themselves, or just the heater boxes that surround them? If they drilled into the pipes themselves, you will notice the car sounding very different than it used to. The boxes that the fresh air goes through to get warm don't have anything to do with the motor's performance. They're just a shell tacked on there for the sake of warming up air.

How does the shop explain the change in performance -- and do you have any way you can demonstrate it to them (like old versus new dyno sheets)?

kach22i

The holes they drilled must be in the outer jacket of the heat exchanger only, because it sounds the same.

The drop off of performance is not great, but it took a lot of the fun out of the car. Like I said, my regular mechanic drove it and noticed the difference right away. The guy who did the work, said this is a good as my year gets, he is happy with the way it is running. Well of course he is happy, anything less would cost him more time. They already had to correct the ignition timing once. I have zero confidence in any of the work they did. If I wanted it done wrong, I would of did it myself.

They could of did a bad job of adjusting the valves, or messed up the cam timing when doing the chain tensioner upgrade (or damaged the valves I have read) or even something when they removed the smog pump. Heck, they may of even put the wrong spark plugs in. They are screw ups, how they have a good rep, is beyond me. Never go to EuroTec of Ann Arbor.

At this point, the car is livable, but disapointing. Having a new shop check all the work of the old shop and getting a lawyer or small claims court (up to $3,000 in Michigan) is not how I want to spend my summer.

I am thinking of driving the car all summer (after I install a new shifter), and in the late fall getting the car re-timed (cam, valve ignition) while I have it in for the heat exchangers. I don't need heat in the summer anyway and will have cash on hand to get the work done. I might even have the 2nd to 3rd gear syncro/sleeve replace while I am at it. One thing at a time for now.

tac911t

So, what work did the shop perform at the same time? They cleaned up the mess from the blown oil cooler (drilled holes in the heat exchanger), installed chain tensioner upgrade, and removed the blower motor?

Installing the chain tensioner upgrade does not change the performance of the motor, your car should and will run just as well before the upgrade as after (given that the original tensioners were OK). The cam timing certainly can get moved during the replacement of the tensioners, and any external adjustment would not compensate.

Sounds like you should have a long and strong talk with the shop.

kach22i

If you have seen this invoice before, sorry...it does tell how much work was done.

kach22i

Page two.

kach22i

One thing at a time for now.

tac911t

Well, the work order states the Cam Timing was adjusted as part of the Tensioner update. IIRC, the specifications for the Cam Timing states a range of values, one end of the value improves the low-end and the other end of the value improves the high-end. The timing could be within these values, at the opposite end of where they were before the repair.

I have never worked in a repair shop, and do not claim to understand first hand how shops price labor and parts, but I do know and would expect that part of the price paid by the customer is to ensure the job is done to your satification and the shops know that they will have to perform some rework, and price their work accordingly.

Before paying someone else to get into your motor and determine the cause of your discrepency, I would do my best to get the origional shop to review their work.

Do you know of any other Porsche owners with the same model car or who may have owned one in the past? Have them drive your car, and provide additional feedback.

TC_SJ

Wow..... You paid $8170.48 and the work still not done correctly ?

kach22i

Quote:
IIRC, the specifications for the Cam Timing states a range of values, one end of the value improves the low-end and the other end of the value improves the high-end. The timing could be within these values, at the opposite end of where they were before the repair.

Yes, yes....that sounds true. However if they used the original cam timing numbers, the ones used for non-tensioner upgraded cars, then it could be way off, right?

Someone on Rennlist or Pelican was kind enough to give the numbers to me. Plus I have an issue of Excellence magizine that has this very topic, right down to the year answered in their Q & A section. I know what I want verified, and what it should be. That is half the battle.

r911

Why do I get the idea that you need a good lawyer?

kach22i

I re-read some of the prints outs in my file, and the Excellence article. It appears there is only one set of correct cam timing numbers. This should make finding the problem easier.

Monday I will be taking my car into P.A.T. (another specialty shop), to see if the Cam timing is correct (another $220).

If my cam timing on #1 and #4 (I think that's what Mike said) is alright, then it's the end of my main concern, which is potential engine damage due to poor cam timing.

Checking this is something EuroTech (Tim Pott) has refused to do, and double check.

I can live with less than stellar performance due to other causes and figure out what they did wrong later.

Establishing there is a measurable problem, and not a differing opinion based on perception is what I have to do.

My plan: First ID that there is a problem. Second, what is the problem. Third, figure out the best way to fix the problem. Fourth, who's gonna pay.

CMMTracknut

Kach, I am one of those guys who speaks very highly of Tim and all of his guys at Eurotec. Your story does not make a lot of sense. You need to clearly identify what you think is wrong with the car. Some seat of your pants feel that you and you other mechanic have does not serve as hard evidence of foulplay. How long has it been since you drove the car? It was leaking oil all over the place and needed clutch and tranny work? Who is this other mechanic?

I have never had any problems what-so-ever with Tim or Eurotec.

I trust them and know many other who feel the same.

What you are doing is premature and flat out unfair.

I hope that everyone who reads this takes into consideration that we have no idea if what you are saying is even remotely true.

kach22i

CMMTracknut, I think Tim and Heather at the front desk mislead me when they said he would be personaly working on my car. John might know what he is doing, but somehow they screwed up this time. When I got my car back it had a lot of problems that should not of been there, taking it back and having to wait 3-weeks while they let my old leaky Targa sit in the rain unattended is a shame.

1. Poorly adjusted clutch, so bad that it might of done further tranny damage.

2. Admitted to mis-timed/mis-read the ignition timing (and kind-of fixed it).

3. Refused to check double cam timing. Note: invoice said they adjusted it and I have a professional second opinion that says there is a big difference in performance- for the worse.

Again, my concerns by EuroTech have not been addressed, and they have not returned parts they agreed to which is in violation of state law. I really don't care about the old parts (smog pump, blower fan), I just want to be able to know the work was done right. They have lied, they have abused my car, they have broken state law. Say all the nice things you want to about them, but everyone screws up once in a while. All I asked is that they spend a couple hours to relieve my doubts. After spending $8,000 and probably in the next 12 months spending another $5,000 you would think they would want my business. I have a client that has similar disappointing experience at EuroTech, he won't go there or Howard Cooper the dealership. We are both looking for a good shop. Your advice is welcomed- cheers.

Will

Something just isn't right here.

I've had Tim Pott work on three different 911's over the past seven years without a glitch. I'm a track junkie, which means that my cars have been in often for repair, modifications, etc., so I know Eurotec very well. I find Tim to be one of the most straightforward, ethical, and reasonable businessmen I know, and his skills with the Porsche 911 (in particular) are formidable, perhaps stemming from his own love for that car and his long experience as a Porsche racer. I have NEVER had a problem with Tim, the quality of Eurotec's work, etc. He's always brutally honest about what he finds when he or his other mechanics look at a car. Sometimes it's something you don't want to hear (i.e., a costly repair is needed), but just as often, he recommends against a repair that is unnecessary.

Kach, looking at the invoice, I would guess your car was pretty rough when you brought it to Eurotec and needed some long overdue work, or perhaps the previous owner(s) was not religious about maintaining the car. It doesn't seem that the work done on the car was aimed at doing much in the performance department. Your "butt dyno" is a rather unreliable indication of anything; it's tied directly to your "wallet dyno". You put out a big chunk of cash, so you expect a big return on the butt dyno, but they aren't necessarily correlated.

There are two sides to every story. I don't know the details here, of course, but knowing Eurotec and it's owner (as well as many of their satisfied customers), and seeing the comments on the invoice that indicate the car was a rough one, I would just caution other readers of this thread that we are hearing one side of the story by someone with a possibly rough car with possibly too-high expectations. Without the balance and context of Eurotec's side of the story, it's hard to tell what really happened.

Perhaps Tim will chime in to defend himself, but he's usually swamped taking good care of his many customers, teaching shop classes at the local college, working on his race car with his son on the weekends, and spending time with his family. He's not one to hang out on the forums, so it's a shame that the he's getting slammed here, so publicly and in such a one-sided fashion.

One more thought - P.A.T. seems to be a good shop (though not 911 specialists like Eurotec), but let's hope they can be impartial here - I believe Tim was part owner of P.A.T. at one time before opening his own shop. So who knows if that history will affect the outcome of their second opinion.

Will