Power & Heat Exchangers
04-08-2004, 08:46 AM
#16
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Will, I am not slaming Tim or EuroTec, I am simply stating a sequence of events. This sequence has been documented and disapointing. Having to take the car back and being told it's good enough sucks. It's not even as good as when I brought it in, another shop owner has even confirmed by a test drive. Perhaps that's how people get treated who own "rough cars", I thought Tim was supposed to be above that.
I intend to follow a scientific process of analysis that others on this forum have recomended I follow- with or without EuroTec's help. They have left me out of the cold on my own, this is not of my own choosing.
Recap;
My plan: First ID that there is a problem. Second, what is the problem. Third, figure out the best way to fix the problem. Fourth, who's gonna pay.
If you think Tim has any interest in taking care of me, and thereby protecting his reputation, have him give me a call. My name is on the invoice, I have nothing to hide and have done nothing wrong.
I intend to follow a scientific process of analysis that others on this forum have recomended I follow- with or without EuroTec's help. They have left me out of the cold on my own, this is not of my own choosing.
Recap;
My plan: First ID that there is a problem. Second, what is the problem. Third, figure out the best way to fix the problem. Fourth, who's gonna pay.
If you think Tim has any interest in taking care of me, and thereby protecting his reputation, have him give me a call. My name is on the invoice, I have nothing to hide and have done nothing wrong.
04-08-2004, 09:03 AM
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Will, before this goes too far, I want to clarify that nowhere in any of my post did I say I was looking for a "performance upgrade". However with all the work done, including a full tune up/valve adjustment one would not normaly expect to see a performance degradation, right?
04-08-2004, 12:25 PM
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kach and his 911, oil leak, etc.
As the subject of disparaging remarks made about me and my shop, I feel the need here to jump in and set a few facts straight with regards to the work done on the 1977 Porsche 911 belonging to Kach22i.
This car came to us late fall, early winter (11/10/03) with an oil leak so severe that we could not drive the car prior to performing any repairs. Literally, oil was pouring from the primary cooler at such a rate, I was surprised that significant engine damage had not already been done. After checking things over, a list of recomended repairs was made, items estimated and we recieved approval from Kach. We were not given carte blanche for these repairs, rather Kach picked from a menu of recomended repairs and decided on what were the most urgent priorities given his budget.
By the time the repairs were completed (01/07/04), the roads here in Ann Arbor, Mi. were salt and snow covered. Kach decided to have the car flat-bedded home. It is my policy not to roadtest a vehicle such as this under these circumstances. Quality control would have to wait until spring.
Yes, his heat exchangers were filled with oil. This can happen when oil leaks have been neglected for a long period of time such as was the case here. It must be noted that these heat exchangers had holes rotted through the sheet metal that shrouds the exhaust pipes. What we did was to drill a 1/8 hole in the bottom of the shrouding to allow a pint or so of oil to drain. This hole is insignificant when compared to the rust holes that already existed higher up on the shrouding. To have left the oil in the heater boxes would have likely resulted in a fire inside the heater boxes. I have seen this before in my 32 years of experience working on Porsches. Yes, SSI exchangers were recomended, but declined at this time due to budget concerns.
As to the smog pump, it was siezed. Given the additional needs of this particular vehicle, this was not high on the list of items needed to make the car reliable and safe. An AIR (air injector reactor) pump functions to reduce hydrocarbons in the exhaust. It is a post-combustion smog device and has no effect whatsoever on the performance of the engine. The fact that it was siezed speaks for itself.
Kach's auxiliary heater blower fan was also broken. It was decided that given the amount of oil in the heat exhchangers coupled with the fact that the heater control valves were siezed open, meaning that heat/smoke would be filling the cockpit at all times, we decided to leave them disconected and blocked off from the heating system of the car. We did this using aluminum tape, not tinfoil. A new auxiliary heater blower was quoted to Kach and declined. He was advised that we had disabled the heater to prevent imminent death by asphixiation.
True, when Kach brought the car back to us we found that the ignition timing had been improperly adjusted which we corrected. After readjusting and roadtesting, I had decided that the performance was normal. Please understand, that the 1977 911s makes 165 hp, not exactly one of Porsche's more powerful models. Factor in that this engine has 93,515 miles on it at the time of repairs and, although the compression readings were ok, it is likely that performance may not match that of a new or rebuilt motor. This coupled with the fact that many of the engine management components; fuel injectors, fuel distributor, fuel pump, etc. might be somewhat compromised, it would be unlikely that this engine would push the rated 165 hp on a dyno. I was happy with the performance and, as per my last conversation with Kach, I thought he was too.
As to the second opinion offered by the mechanic who works on his other car. The only other car Kach has driven to my repair facility is a Geo Tracker. Is this the mechanic whose is evaluating the performance of his Porsche? Has this guy ever driven any other Porsche 911? How long has he been in the business?
Perhaps the most disconcerting part of this whole experience is the fact that Kach has taken this issue public prior to confronting me directly. My standard practices and warranty policy is extremely liberal and I have always given my customers the benefit of any doubt. I will continue to do so in this case, Kach need only call me with his current concerns.
Timothy C. Pott
owner/manager
Eurotec Motors, Inc.
This car came to us late fall, early winter (11/10/03) with an oil leak so severe that we could not drive the car prior to performing any repairs. Literally, oil was pouring from the primary cooler at such a rate, I was surprised that significant engine damage had not already been done. After checking things over, a list of recomended repairs was made, items estimated and we recieved approval from Kach. We were not given carte blanche for these repairs, rather Kach picked from a menu of recomended repairs and decided on what were the most urgent priorities given his budget.
By the time the repairs were completed (01/07/04), the roads here in Ann Arbor, Mi. were salt and snow covered. Kach decided to have the car flat-bedded home. It is my policy not to roadtest a vehicle such as this under these circumstances. Quality control would have to wait until spring.
Yes, his heat exchangers were filled with oil. This can happen when oil leaks have been neglected for a long period of time such as was the case here. It must be noted that these heat exchangers had holes rotted through the sheet metal that shrouds the exhaust pipes. What we did was to drill a 1/8 hole in the bottom of the shrouding to allow a pint or so of oil to drain. This hole is insignificant when compared to the rust holes that already existed higher up on the shrouding. To have left the oil in the heater boxes would have likely resulted in a fire inside the heater boxes. I have seen this before in my 32 years of experience working on Porsches. Yes, SSI exchangers were recomended, but declined at this time due to budget concerns.
As to the smog pump, it was siezed. Given the additional needs of this particular vehicle, this was not high on the list of items needed to make the car reliable and safe. An AIR (air injector reactor) pump functions to reduce hydrocarbons in the exhaust. It is a post-combustion smog device and has no effect whatsoever on the performance of the engine. The fact that it was siezed speaks for itself.
Kach's auxiliary heater blower fan was also broken. It was decided that given the amount of oil in the heat exhchangers coupled with the fact that the heater control valves were siezed open, meaning that heat/smoke would be filling the cockpit at all times, we decided to leave them disconected and blocked off from the heating system of the car. We did this using aluminum tape, not tinfoil. A new auxiliary heater blower was quoted to Kach and declined. He was advised that we had disabled the heater to prevent imminent death by asphixiation.
True, when Kach brought the car back to us we found that the ignition timing had been improperly adjusted which we corrected. After readjusting and roadtesting, I had decided that the performance was normal. Please understand, that the 1977 911s makes 165 hp, not exactly one of Porsche's more powerful models. Factor in that this engine has 93,515 miles on it at the time of repairs and, although the compression readings were ok, it is likely that performance may not match that of a new or rebuilt motor. This coupled with the fact that many of the engine management components; fuel injectors, fuel distributor, fuel pump, etc. might be somewhat compromised, it would be unlikely that this engine would push the rated 165 hp on a dyno. I was happy with the performance and, as per my last conversation with Kach, I thought he was too.
As to the second opinion offered by the mechanic who works on his other car. The only other car Kach has driven to my repair facility is a Geo Tracker. Is this the mechanic whose is evaluating the performance of his Porsche? Has this guy ever driven any other Porsche 911? How long has he been in the business?
Perhaps the most disconcerting part of this whole experience is the fact that Kach has taken this issue public prior to confronting me directly. My standard practices and warranty policy is extremely liberal and I have always given my customers the benefit of any doubt. I will continue to do so in this case, Kach need only call me with his current concerns.
Timothy C. Pott
owner/manager
Eurotec Motors, Inc.
04-08-2004, 11:22 PM
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Welcome to Rennlist, Tim!
Sorry your first post had to be under the current circumstances. I wish you and Kach the best in working this situation out.
Cheers,
Will
Sorry your first post had to be under the current circumstances. I wish you and Kach the best in working this situation out.
Cheers,
Will
04-09-2004, 09:26 AM
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Tim called me yesterday and offered to check the cam timing. I accepted and droped off the car at 5:00PM. I assume its already in the shop as I type this.
He asked me if I have had any problem with my projects as an architect, and I said yes. What do I do about them? I take car of the probem if given the chance.
It's funny he called me when he did, I was in the middle of the biggest problem I have had to deal with in a while. I am usualy so on top of things that I just dont have any problems, just small fires to put out. This one however was due to a client changing their mind on the type of window, and the builder resizing per new window type on this own (casements and single hungs don't come in the same sizes). They were too small, 2" to narrow, and almost 5" to short. Its not much of a sunroom if its more wall than window - so we are taking them out and upgrading them at no extra charge.
The clients problem, is my problem even if the people I work with keep me out of the loop. We work together to fix problems before they are real problems all the time. That's my dirty laundry, we all have some.
He asked me if I have had any problem with my projects as an architect, and I said yes. What do I do about them? I take car of the probem if given the chance.
It's funny he called me when he did, I was in the middle of the biggest problem I have had to deal with in a while. I am usualy so on top of things that I just dont have any problems, just small fires to put out. This one however was due to a client changing their mind on the type of window, and the builder resizing per new window type on this own (casements and single hungs don't come in the same sizes). They were too small, 2" to narrow, and almost 5" to short. Its not much of a sunroom if its more wall than window - so we are taking them out and upgrading them at no extra charge.
The clients problem, is my problem even if the people I work with keep me out of the loop. We work together to fix problems before they are real problems all the time. That's my dirty laundry, we all have some.
Last edited by kach22i; 04-11-2004 at 05:30 AM.
04-09-2004, 02:33 PM
#22
clients problem, is my problem
- but from the exchange it sounds like you wanted the cheapest possible repair and that is what you got...?
At any rate I hope you both can work out a mutually satisfactory resoultion
- but from the exchange it sounds like you wanted the cheapest possible repair and that is what you got...?
At any rate I hope you both can work out a mutually satisfactory resoultion
04-11-2004, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
- but from the exchange it sounds like you wanted the cheapest possible repair and that is what you got...?
Allow me to clarify that statement for Tim, he can correct me if he feels the need.
I get Panorama and Excellence magzines, and did some reading on line, including here. Being a newbie to Porsche, I simply asked Tim if the performance clutch was a good value over the standard fair for little over $100 more (as listed in the magizines). He said he did not recommend one for my car because it's only driven on the street and not track. Additionaly he said grippier clutches can act as an "on-off" switch, not a good thing. I said fine, I'll take your advice. To Tim's credit he had Heather price out the clutch replacement both ways, I guess to go the extra mile and put the issue to rest for good. It was way more than a $100 difference, but that was not a factor in my decision- I had already decided to take Tim's recomendation and said so up-front.
I waived the heat exchanges because the bill was already double of my worse case estimation of what I would be putting into the car in the first year. Also it was explained to me that there would be no engine operating issues with bad exchangers, just no heat.
I don't need heat, A/C or a working radio - it's a Porsche, driven for fun on the weekends. I drive it in the summer top down, don't need anything but miles of country road ahead of me.
I followed Tim's advice and defered to him, even if it went aginst my own better judgement. One example is switching the car to synthetic oil, but that's another topic on this forum.
- but from the exchange it sounds like you wanted the cheapest possible repair and that is what you got...?
Allow me to clarify that statement for Tim, he can correct me if he feels the need.
I get Panorama and Excellence magzines, and did some reading on line, including here. Being a newbie to Porsche, I simply asked Tim if the performance clutch was a good value over the standard fair for little over $100 more (as listed in the magizines). He said he did not recommend one for my car because it's only driven on the street and not track. Additionaly he said grippier clutches can act as an "on-off" switch, not a good thing. I said fine, I'll take your advice. To Tim's credit he had Heather price out the clutch replacement both ways, I guess to go the extra mile and put the issue to rest for good. It was way more than a $100 difference, but that was not a factor in my decision- I had already decided to take Tim's recomendation and said so up-front.
I waived the heat exchanges because the bill was already double of my worse case estimation of what I would be putting into the car in the first year. Also it was explained to me that there would be no engine operating issues with bad exchangers, just no heat.
I don't need heat, A/C or a working radio - it's a Porsche, driven for fun on the weekends. I drive it in the summer top down, don't need anything but miles of country road ahead of me.
I followed Tim's advice and defered to him, even if it went aginst my own better judgement. One example is switching the car to synthetic oil, but that's another topic on this forum.
04-12-2004, 01:45 AM
#24
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$90/hour for labor? Are you kidding? in MI.? hahahha Way out of line...
10 hours to R&R a motor/trans? Try 5-6 hours in my garage by myself.
I could go on and on....
I hate seeing this type of stuff...
TonyG
10 hours to R&R a motor/trans? Try 5-6 hours in my garage by myself.
I could go on and on....
I hate seeing this type of stuff...
TonyG
04-12-2004, 09:38 AM
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TonyG, when removing the engine do you detach the shift linkage in the tunnel? I have read so. The shop said they did not touch the shift linkage.
Also, I was told that not only does a clutch need an adjustment sometime after installation, but a new clutch cable will stretch to a stable dimension soon after replacement. I swear my clutch may need another adjustment just a couple of weeks after getting it adjusted. Could there be stripped connector screws that may be accounting for the clutch not holding its adjustment? Mind you this is a slight issue compared to all the other problems I have been having, but it leads to grinding gears, so it concerns me.
Also, I was told that not only does a clutch need an adjustment sometime after installation, but a new clutch cable will stretch to a stable dimension soon after replacement. I swear my clutch may need another adjustment just a couple of weeks after getting it adjusted. Could there be stripped connector screws that may be accounting for the clutch not holding its adjustment? Mind you this is a slight issue compared to all the other problems I have been having, but it leads to grinding gears, so it concerns me.
04-12-2004, 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by kach22i
TonyG, when removing the engine do you detach the shift linkage in the tunnel? I have read so. The shop said they did not touch the shift linkage.
TonyG, when removing the engine do you detach the shift linkage in the tunnel? I have read so. The shop said they did not touch the shift linkage.
On the front side, it is a splined slip fit, with a set bolt to keep it in adjustment. When you adjust your linkage, this is how you do it.
On the rear side, there is a allen head threaded tapered pin that screws into a hole on the Selector shaft from the tranny. It only goes together one way. You put the shaft in the coupler, insert the pin and it is where it needs to be.
When you remove the tranny, you remove disconnect the back side, and the shifter adjustment is unchanged.
So where was your cam timing?
Tom
04-12-2004, 01:37 PM
#27
10 hours or $900 bucks to drop and replace engine?
$117 bucks for spark plugs?
4 hours or $340 for a valve adjustment?
I believe I'm in the wrong business. No way in hell would I take my car to someone like that. Those prices are higher than dealer rates. They must be pretty good.....
Those rates must be P-dealer prices for parts and book rates for labor - even though any good wench can do the labor in half the time the book calls for. Hell I'm not a great wrench, but I can do most work in half to three quarters the time quoted..
One thing I've learned over the years is that the most expensive does not mean it's the best and the least expensive does not mean it's the worst....
Good luck!
$117 bucks for spark plugs?
4 hours or $340 for a valve adjustment?
I believe I'm in the wrong business. No way in hell would I take my car to someone like that. Those prices are higher than dealer rates. They must be pretty good.....
Those rates must be P-dealer prices for parts and book rates for labor - even though any good wench can do the labor in half the time the book calls for. Hell I'm not a great wrench, but I can do most work in half to three quarters the time quoted..
One thing I've learned over the years is that the most expensive does not mean it's the best and the least expensive does not mean it's the worst....
Good luck!
04-12-2004, 03:56 PM
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emcon5/Tom, the shop reported to me this morning that the cam timing is per spec, the lower end to be exact. According to both the shop and Excellence issue 121, August 2003 that would be 0.4 to 0.54mm.
I can live with 0.4, I am happy with 0.4, now I can drive the car without thinking I am destroying it. All I wanted was to let this worry pass. But of course now I can worry about other things if I want to, such as why the fun has gone out of the car. How do you measure fun?
Something is still wacky or out of wack, but I am not tied up in knots worrying about it anymore.
I can live with 0.4, I am happy with 0.4, now I can drive the car without thinking I am destroying it. All I wanted was to let this worry pass. But of course now I can worry about other things if I want to, such as why the fun has gone out of the car. How do you measure fun?
Something is still wacky or out of wack, but I am not tied up in knots worrying about it anymore.
04-15-2004, 04:14 AM
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UPDATE
UPDATE:
True to his word, Tim Pott/EuroTec check all of his work again. In addition he replaced the points and tweeked the ignition timing. Oh what a difference!
It's nice to see someone stand by their work and not give up, perhaps next time it will go more smoothly.
I only drove the car a little while, from the shop to my house, a ten minute drive (with side trip into an industrial park-low traffic area). However I can tell that the car moves like it lost 500lbs (like it used to). Now it takes off when you hit the gas, and not just thinks about it for a half second.
The low end seems to be back, and the top end too. The mid band has more meat in it.
The car has pep to it and is more fun to drive.
It was sad to have my old Geo Tracker more respondsive than the Porsche, now nature is back in equaliberium.
On the invoice (no charge) there is documentation (good sized paragraph) all about the oil leaks. There is much debate on-line about switching an old car to synthetic oil, but eventually I will need a re-seal job and some tranny work. It leaks too much the way it is for my taste, after warming up it leaks pretty bad on to both heat exchangers (been told it's not the new valve covers)- not something it was doing last fall. Thinking about changing the oil back to regular and seeing what happens.
True to his word, Tim Pott/EuroTec check all of his work again. In addition he replaced the points and tweeked the ignition timing. Oh what a difference!
It's nice to see someone stand by their work and not give up, perhaps next time it will go more smoothly.
I only drove the car a little while, from the shop to my house, a ten minute drive (with side trip into an industrial park-low traffic area). However I can tell that the car moves like it lost 500lbs (like it used to). Now it takes off when you hit the gas, and not just thinks about it for a half second.
The low end seems to be back, and the top end too. The mid band has more meat in it.
The car has pep to it and is more fun to drive.
It was sad to have my old Geo Tracker more respondsive than the Porsche, now nature is back in equaliberium.
On the invoice (no charge) there is documentation (good sized paragraph) all about the oil leaks. There is much debate on-line about switching an old car to synthetic oil, but eventually I will need a re-seal job and some tranny work. It leaks too much the way it is for my taste, after warming up it leaks pretty bad on to both heat exchangers (been told it's not the new valve covers)- not something it was doing last fall. Thinking about changing the oil back to regular and seeing what happens.
