Carrera 3.2 Performance mystery and Chips (long)
#16
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Autothority has been is business over 15 years and is as capable & knowledgeable
about chips as anyone and more so. If there were "secrets" to programming DME
chips they know them and have tried them.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
about chips as anyone and more so. If there were "secrets" to programming DME
chips they know them and have tried them.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
#17
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Originally posted by Lorenfb
What's really been said?????? More B.S.
Good Luck
Loren
'88 3.2
What's really been said?????? More B.S.
Good Luck
Loren
'88 3.2
![Confused](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif)
#18
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Excellent in what way? A lot of info was presented which failed to address the
issue; "What's the REAL basis for the "so called" performance gains and what
besides "feelings" supports the claims being made? My thread presented facts
and not hyperbole and ridiculous methods for optimizing performance chips.
I suggest you and others obtain some technical books on performance tuning
and don't accept unsupported presentations at face value without objective
data. If you find outside reading difficult, then watch the Speed Channel when
they discuss performance tuning.
Check out my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical, Graphs, and
Problems pages for some additional info about what I'm trying to convey.
I really hate to see many of the uninformed get caught up in the chip hype
which initially occurred in the late '80s and early '90. Most Porsche people
who have been in the business over 10 years have little regard for chips
and really don't waste their customers money on them.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
issue; "What's the REAL basis for the "so called" performance gains and what
besides "feelings" supports the claims being made? My thread presented facts
and not hyperbole and ridiculous methods for optimizing performance chips.
I suggest you and others obtain some technical books on performance tuning
and don't accept unsupported presentations at face value without objective
data. If you find outside reading difficult, then watch the Speed Channel when
they discuss performance tuning.
Check out my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical, Graphs, and
Problems pages for some additional info about what I'm trying to convey.
I really hate to see many of the uninformed get caught up in the chip hype
which initially occurred in the late '80s and early '90. Most Porsche people
who have been in the business over 10 years have little regard for chips
and really don't waste their customers money on them.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
#19
Rennlist Member
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Loren
Steve's post must have been to hard for you to understand. Maybe you need to read the post again. I had no problem understanding how he has optimized his product. He tests it in REAL world conditions with real time data. I don't take my car to the dyno to drive it. I have to drive in stop and go traffic just like everyone else. When i can open it up i do just that. I keep my car in the best shape that i can and run the necessary octane fuel. My car has had an Autothority chip in it for more than the last 12 years. It runs great. If the chips were the doom and gloom that you keep harping on, my engine should have died long ago. Its great when you post useful information and i have read this with great interest. You can't seem to deal with the fact that here are others that are enhancing the experience with our cars. I am fully aware of what i am doing and the consequences that are possible when i installed my new chip. If Porsche thought that changing the spring tension on the afm would have helped they would have changed that and not "left that on the table". No product, no matter what, gets great reviews or continues to sell for long without being able to provide a benefit for the user. Basic sales training will tell you that. Chips in general have been selling for 15 years as you stated with Autothority and still are. They are more refined due to what all the companys have done with their products. You know what your talking about but that is for the most part negated by the nasty posts such as this "What's really been said?????? More B.S." and many more negative posts that most of us have seen in other threads. Porsche continued to refine their chips through the 80's and no one believes that there are any hidden secrets to programming a chip but Steve is refining and making the driving experience even better then it already is. Stop attacking others and provide the knowledge that you have to contribute to this board. We are all able to make decisions based upon what info we have in front of us and be able to enjoy or suffer the consequences.
Steve's post must have been to hard for you to understand. Maybe you need to read the post again. I had no problem understanding how he has optimized his product. He tests it in REAL world conditions with real time data. I don't take my car to the dyno to drive it. I have to drive in stop and go traffic just like everyone else. When i can open it up i do just that. I keep my car in the best shape that i can and run the necessary octane fuel. My car has had an Autothority chip in it for more than the last 12 years. It runs great. If the chips were the doom and gloom that you keep harping on, my engine should have died long ago. Its great when you post useful information and i have read this with great interest. You can't seem to deal with the fact that here are others that are enhancing the experience with our cars. I am fully aware of what i am doing and the consequences that are possible when i installed my new chip. If Porsche thought that changing the spring tension on the afm would have helped they would have changed that and not "left that on the table". No product, no matter what, gets great reviews or continues to sell for long without being able to provide a benefit for the user. Basic sales training will tell you that. Chips in general have been selling for 15 years as you stated with Autothority and still are. They are more refined due to what all the companys have done with their products. You know what your talking about but that is for the most part negated by the nasty posts such as this "What's really been said?????? More B.S." and many more negative posts that most of us have seen in other threads. Porsche continued to refine their chips through the 80's and no one believes that there are any hidden secrets to programming a chip but Steve is refining and making the driving experience even better then it already is. Stop attacking others and provide the knowledge that you have to contribute to this board. We are all able to make decisions based upon what info we have in front of us and be able to enjoy or suffer the consequences.
#20
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by Lorenfb
Excellent in what way? A lot of info was presented which failed to address the
issue; "What's the REAL basis for the "so called" performance gains and what
besides "feelings" supports the claims being made? My thread presented facts
and not hyperbole and ridiculous methods for optimizing performance chips.
I suggest you and others obtain some technical books on performance tuning
and don't accept unsupported presentations at face value without objective
data. If you find outside reading difficult, then watch the Speed Channel when
they discuss performance tuning.
Check out my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical, Graphs, and
Problems pages for some additional info about what I'm trying to convey.
I really hate to see many of the uninformed get caught up in the chip hype
which initially occurred in the late '80s and early '90. Most Porsche people
who have been in the business over 10 years have little regard for chips
and really don't waste their customers money on them.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
Excellent in what way? A lot of info was presented which failed to address the
issue; "What's the REAL basis for the "so called" performance gains and what
besides "feelings" supports the claims being made? My thread presented facts
and not hyperbole and ridiculous methods for optimizing performance chips.
I suggest you and others obtain some technical books on performance tuning
and don't accept unsupported presentations at face value without objective
data. If you find outside reading difficult, then watch the Speed Channel when
they discuss performance tuning.
Check out my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical, Graphs, and
Problems pages for some additional info about what I'm trying to convey.
I really hate to see many of the uninformed get caught up in the chip hype
which initially occurred in the late '80s and early '90. Most Porsche people
who have been in the business over 10 years have little regard for chips
and really don't waste their customers money on them.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
Be Safe
WC996
#21
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Originally posted by Lorenfb
Excellent in what way? A lot of info was presented which failed to address the
issue; "What's the REAL basis for the "so called" performance gains and what
besides "feelings" supports the claims being made? My thread presented facts
and not hyperbole and ridiculous methods for optimizing performance chips.
Excellent in what way? A lot of info was presented which failed to address the
issue; "What's the REAL basis for the "so called" performance gains and what
besides "feelings" supports the claims being made? My thread presented facts
and not hyperbole and ridiculous methods for optimizing performance chips.
Originally posted by Lorenfb
I suggest you and others obtain some technical books on performance tuning
and don't accept unsupported presentations at face value without objective
data. If you find outside reading difficult, then watch the Speed Channel when
they discuss performance tuning.
I suggest you and others obtain some technical books on performance tuning
and don't accept unsupported presentations at face value without objective
data. If you find outside reading difficult, then watch the Speed Channel when
they discuss performance tuning.
Originally posted by Lorenfb
Check out my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical, Graphs, and
Problems pages for some additional info about what I'm trying to convey.
I really hate to see many of the uninformed get caught up in the chip hype
which initially occurred in the late '80s and early '90. Most Porsche people
who have been in the business over 10 years have little regard for chips
and really don't waste their customers money on them.
Check out my web site (www.systemsc.com) on the Technical, Graphs, and
Problems pages for some additional info about what I'm trying to convey.
I really hate to see many of the uninformed get caught up in the chip hype
which initially occurred in the late '80s and early '90. Most Porsche people
who have been in the business over 10 years have little regard for chips
and really don't waste their customers money on them.
BTW, I did check your website, and found a bunch of very simple, and almost totally useless graphs. It appears that you are in the business of rebuilding DMEs to stock specs and you're not in the performance business. If in the future I am looking for the ordinary, I will give you a call.
And, with that, I am through with Lord Loren. I can't believe how much time and energy I've wasted with this.
#22
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Come on now, let's cut the negativity here. Bashing Loren (and his obviously strong feelings on the chip issue) is not going to make your car any faster! ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Many of you have purchased performance chips for your 911 (or bought a car that had one already installed), so you are about as biased as anybody on here. Not that I am accusing anybody here, but people don't want to hear that they may have wasted their money. They will defend the purchase they have already made, regardless of whether or not it actually improves anything.
I don't claim to be an expert on Motronics or performance tuning, but in my personal experience Loren is pretty much right. A chip may improve the subjective "feel" of the throttle response in the 3.2, but it does not make them much quicker if everything else is left stock. Even assuming the chip provides an extra 5hp, what is that good for really? Is that going to make the car much faster around the track or on the street?
Hey, it's your car, and you should do what you want with it. If you like the way it feels with the chip, great, enjoy it. If you don't already have one, don't worry about it, because they are certainly not the be-all, end-all in performance tuning. If you are thinking about buying one, just be aware that a chip alone won't do very much for your overall performance. Like anything else, you must balance the cost and benefits (or detriments) of it.
I think it's great to have two opposing views expressed so one can make a more informed decision. There's no need to get upset about it because you either have a chip, sell chips, or you think they are about as much of a scam as Slick-50 was!![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
-Sean
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Many of you have purchased performance chips for your 911 (or bought a car that had one already installed), so you are about as biased as anybody on here. Not that I am accusing anybody here, but people don't want to hear that they may have wasted their money. They will defend the purchase they have already made, regardless of whether or not it actually improves anything.
I don't claim to be an expert on Motronics or performance tuning, but in my personal experience Loren is pretty much right. A chip may improve the subjective "feel" of the throttle response in the 3.2, but it does not make them much quicker if everything else is left stock. Even assuming the chip provides an extra 5hp, what is that good for really? Is that going to make the car much faster around the track or on the street?
Hey, it's your car, and you should do what you want with it. If you like the way it feels with the chip, great, enjoy it. If you don't already have one, don't worry about it, because they are certainly not the be-all, end-all in performance tuning. If you are thinking about buying one, just be aware that a chip alone won't do very much for your overall performance. Like anything else, you must balance the cost and benefits (or detriments) of it.
I think it's great to have two opposing views expressed so one can make a more informed decision. There's no need to get upset about it because you either have a chip, sell chips, or you think they are about as much of a scam as Slick-50 was!
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
-Sean
#23
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Gosh, it's amazing to me the negativity and animosity shown by you Loren. My soon to be fullfilled dream of owning a 911 is one of excitement and a longing for that special quality these automobiles embody... It seems to me you've lost the 'grin' that most owners gush about. Too bad, hope I never get to that point... Meanwhile, I'll be avoiding your posts in the future. Your not teaching me anything and I loathe the thought of your 'tarnsih' clouding my future ownership experience.
Lastly, I just can't imagine that anyone would profess that Porsche did everything perfect (with the 911) and left nothing for the tweakers. Just as the software I use on my PCs at home and equipment at work, they are produced for the masses. This means that some features are unfortunately 'dumbed down' to provide system stability for the average user... And as we all know; the average user does little or no maintenance and yet expects maximum uptime (reliability). I have tweaked Windows XP and my internet browser to the point that my wife no longer recognizes them... Have I gotten more performance than I did out of the box? You bet!!!
Have a good day and please... Smile.
Eric
Lastly, I just can't imagine that anyone would profess that Porsche did everything perfect (with the 911) and left nothing for the tweakers. Just as the software I use on my PCs at home and equipment at work, they are produced for the masses. This means that some features are unfortunately 'dumbed down' to provide system stability for the average user... And as we all know; the average user does little or no maintenance and yet expects maximum uptime (reliability). I have tweaked Windows XP and my internet browser to the point that my wife no longer recognizes them... Have I gotten more performance than I did out of the box? You bet!!!
Have a good day and please... Smile.
Eric
#24
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Changing code on PC using C++ or using an assembly language to enhance
software is a VERY poor analogy to performance tuning. I've written and
enhanced many PC programs and even written at the machine language level.
When you program a control system which a fuel injection system basically is,
it's much more complex as there are many variables involved not just the
output to a screen/printer or program multi-tasking times.
You just DON'T drive down the street and watch an AFR indicator and then
reprogram a DME chip. To program properly you must data log ALL the variables;
temp, RPM, air flow meter, timing, AFR, & engine load which is the most critical.
You must know all of these to determine where on the three dimensional
fuel & ignition maps you have a problem and where on these maps you
must make changes. Furthermore, you must correlate measured torque,
e.g. from a dyno run, to a variable such the AFM to have an idea of where you
are on the torque curve when maps changes must be made.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
software is a VERY poor analogy to performance tuning. I've written and
enhanced many PC programs and even written at the machine language level.
When you program a control system which a fuel injection system basically is,
it's much more complex as there are many variables involved not just the
output to a screen/printer or program multi-tasking times.
You just DON'T drive down the street and watch an AFR indicator and then
reprogram a DME chip. To program properly you must data log ALL the variables;
temp, RPM, air flow meter, timing, AFR, & engine load which is the most critical.
You must know all of these to determine where on the three dimensional
fuel & ignition maps you have a problem and where on these maps you
must make changes. Furthermore, you must correlate measured torque,
e.g. from a dyno run, to a variable such the AFM to have an idea of where you
are on the torque curve when maps changes must be made.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
#25
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Additional Note:
If you really want to develop a DME chip properly, you could use an EPROM emulator
and make changes real-time with a PC interface. This is probably how the OEMs
tweak the final fuel and ignition maps.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
If you really want to develop a DME chip properly, you could use an EPROM emulator
and make changes real-time with a PC interface. This is probably how the OEMs
tweak the final fuel and ignition maps.
Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2
#26
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by Lorenfb
Changing code on PC using C++ or using an assembly language to enhance
software is a VERY poor analogy to performance tuning. I've written and
enhanced many PC programs and even written at the machine language level.
Changing code on PC using C++ or using an assembly language to enhance
software is a VERY poor analogy to performance tuning. I've written and
enhanced many PC programs and even written at the machine language level.
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Keith Craver
#28
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by ked
I'm having trouble distinguishing chips in 911s from chips on shoulders.
I'm having trouble distinguishing chips in 911s from chips on shoulders.
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Just kidding Loren!
#29
Racer
Thread Starter
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Some wonderful comments going on here. Perhaps some may have forgotten some of the many dyno runs we performed a while back that accompanies our research and data. Those that read the post would note that laptops are interfaced into the DME and not one eprom was burned throughout the entire process. Now lets all go home, have a beer, and enjoy the weekend!
![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)
#30
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by Steve W
Now lets all go home, have a beer, and enjoy the weekend!
Now lets all go home, have a beer, and enjoy the weekend!
![Cheers](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif)