GT4 Traction Control
01-09-2023, 03:35 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
GT4 Traction Control
GT4 with traction control seems brilliantly engineered. For my spirited daily driving on the common roadways, the GT4 seems to be ALL grip without any slip or APPRECIABLE ‘nannying.’ . . . unlike my F87C and G80C that were riddled with nanny intrusion when traction control was fully activated.
I was wondering if any GT4 owners find value/enjoyment in turning off traction control?
I do not want to be a hooligan with a loose rear end waiting around every turn. However, I wonder if there is a level of ‘nannying’ going on that is only appreciated once traction control is disabled?
Sure, I could just turn off traction control and find out . . . and plan to do just that one day when I have the time and the road conditions allow me opportunity to SAFELY explore the limits. Before doing so, I am interested to hear experiences from other owners.
Honestly, I do not even know if the GT4 has an equivalent to the BMW MDM mode . . . or is the traction control either completely on or completely off?
If traction control is partially/completely disabled, does the GT4 become the domain of a hooligan just looking for trouble? Or, again, does it expose a level of nanny freedom that can be safely applied and enjoyed with some degree of driver prudence?
Avera
I was wondering if any GT4 owners find value/enjoyment in turning off traction control?
I do not want to be a hooligan with a loose rear end waiting around every turn. However, I wonder if there is a level of ‘nannying’ going on that is only appreciated once traction control is disabled?
Sure, I could just turn off traction control and find out . . . and plan to do just that one day when I have the time and the road conditions allow me opportunity to SAFELY explore the limits. Before doing so, I am interested to hear experiences from other owners.
Honestly, I do not even know if the GT4 has an equivalent to the BMW MDM mode . . . or is the traction control either completely on or completely off?
If traction control is partially/completely disabled, does the GT4 become the domain of a hooligan just looking for trouble? Or, again, does it expose a level of nanny freedom that can be safely applied and enjoyed with some degree of driver prudence?
Avera
01-09-2023, 03:52 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Short answer is I’ve never seen the need to. I came from an F87 which always needed to be in MDM to enjoy the car. PSM does not get in the way, and the car is sharper by nature and less of a hooligan car than a typical modern M car.
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01-09-2023, 03:54 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
The one time I forgot to turn off ESC/TC on track, I couldn’t believe how intrusive it was on corner exits. Very frustrating.
I’ve never felt the need to turn it off on public roads.
I’ve never felt the need to turn it off on public roads.
01-09-2023, 04:00 PM
#4
My GT4 is ONLY the 2nd car I have owned where I felt it totally unnecessary to turn off or reduce anything with the stability / traction control. The other being my old Audi TTRS (well because QUATTRO [although not an actual Quattro, more like Helix, but still got the job done])
If only all MFGs systems were as good as Porsche GT cars.
Also, being mid-engine, I would NEVER turn off the systems on the street as a mid-engine once it starts rotating, is harder to catch, think ice skater when they are twirling.
If only all MFGs systems were as good as Porsche GT cars.
Also, being mid-engine, I would NEVER turn off the systems on the street as a mid-engine once it starts rotating, is harder to catch, think ice skater when they are twirling.
01-09-2023, 04:56 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
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01-09-2023, 05:01 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Never considered the difference between a front and mid-engine car when it comes to the rear end getting loose . . . I do not want to get in over my head with technical matters, but I thought both ///M and P cars strived for a near 50/50 weight balance, with COG located in the middle. I could be way off in my assessment and happy to be corrected.
Avera
01-09-2023, 05:09 PM
#7
Thank you @DC021
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
I may be mistaken, but I believe that the stability light will blink if the PTV system is doing any work whatsoever.
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01-09-2023, 05:13 PM
#8
@TRZ06
Never considered the difference between a front and mid-engine car when it comes to the rear end getting loose . . . I do not want to get in over my head with technical matters, but I thought both ///M and P cars strived for a near 50/50 weight balance, with COG located in the middle. I could be way off in my assessment and happy to be corrected.
Avera
Never considered the difference between a front and mid-engine car when it comes to the rear end getting loose . . . I do not want to get in over my head with technical matters, but I thought both ///M and P cars strived for a near 50/50 weight balance, with COG located in the middle. I could be way off in my assessment and happy to be corrected.
Avera
The GT4 isn't a 50/50 split. I think it is something like 44/56. While front engine layouts can achieve very close (if not exact) 50/50, mid-engines usually have a little rear bias. In either case, even with a front engine with a 50/50 split, you still have all that weight up front to help you. With a mid-engine, the motor is more closely at the COG for polar movements and it is like when a figure skater brings their body and weight centered and they spin faster.
01-09-2023, 05:18 PM
#9
Thank you @DC021
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
I've done a few autocross events and my times are ESC OFF fastest, all off (ESC + TC OFF) second fastest (Sometimes I have too much turn in and requires more correction), and full on slowest. ESC Off allows enough slip to make you fast on track if you're not 10/10 at controlling the car.
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Avera (01-09-2023)
01-09-2023, 05:20 PM
#10
@TRZ06 I'll have to pay attention to mine at the track, but I don't think the light blinks at any point when I have mine off at the track.
@Avera It's a mid engine'd car so it gets its power down much better than a F/R, but I still find TCS intrusive when driven hard on the street or track. Except for the first laps with cold tires on a 50F day, I typically run at the track with TCS off. That said, I've seen a guy turn ridiculous lap times with TCS on and driven in a very different style than I drive, so I can't argue with running it. My times with everything off have been my fastest times, unsure if placebo.
@Avera It's a mid engine'd car so it gets its power down much better than a F/R, but I still find TCS intrusive when driven hard on the street or track. Except for the first laps with cold tires on a 50F day, I typically run at the track with TCS off. That said, I've seen a guy turn ridiculous lap times with TCS on and driven in a very different style than I drive, so I can't argue with running it. My times with everything off have been my fastest times, unsure if placebo.
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Avera (01-09-2023)
01-09-2023, 05:20 PM
#11
What is your experience?
What is your risk tolerance? $100k = High risk
Do you get insurance?
Most of my freinds and I don't turn it off. Not worth the risk for the reward to me.
I turn it off on race car and cheap BMWs.
Weekend DE champs
What is your risk tolerance? $100k = High risk
Do you get insurance?
Most of my freinds and I don't turn it off. Not worth the risk for the reward to me.
I turn it off on race car and cheap BMWs.
Weekend DE champs
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01-09-2023, 05:58 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thank you @DC021
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
Interestingly, when I make aggressive pulls out of turns on the roadways I can see the yellow traction control light flicker in the instrument panel, but I do not perceive the nanny intrusion like you describe on the track. . . at least not to the horrendous extent I experienced in the ///M cars. That does not mean there is no intrusion, rather, that Porsche does a better job of hiding/integrating the intrusion than BMW.
The fact that you apparently never using traction control on the track (unless you forget to turn it off) tells me you feel both liberated AND safe under demanding conditions with stability control turned off.
Finally, does the GT4 have the equivalent of MDM mode, or is it all in or out?
Avera
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Avera (01-09-2023)
01-09-2023, 07:42 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
ESC off is like MDM mode.
I've done a few autocross events and my times are ESC OFF fastest, all off (ESC + TC OFF) second fastest (Sometimes I have too much turn in and requires more correction), and full on slowest. ESC Off allows enough slip to make you fast on track if you're not 10/10 at controlling the car.
I've done a few autocross events and my times are ESC OFF fastest, all off (ESC + TC OFF) second fastest (Sometimes I have too much turn in and requires more correction), and full on slowest. ESC Off allows enough slip to make you fast on track if you're not 10/10 at controlling the car.
So, you indicating there are three modes with the GT4.
1. Full traction/stability control
2. ESC that is like MDM mode in bimmers
3. Traction/stability control both completely off
Yes, I can try and locate my owners manual, wherever it is . . . but, hey, what are forums for if not to ask questions?
So, press stability control to go into ESC mode and, I assume press it twice or hold it down to turn traction/stability control completely off?
Avera
01-09-2023, 07:54 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
@TRZ06 I'll have to pay attention to mine at the track, but I don't think the light blinks at any point when I have mine off at the track.
@Avera It's a mid engine'd car so it gets its power down much better than a F/R, but I still find TCS intrusive when driven hard on the street or track. Except for the first laps with cold tires on a 50F day, I typically run at the track with TCS off. That said, I've seen a guy turn ridiculous lap times with TCS on and driven in a very different style than I drive, so I can't argue with running it. My times with everything off have been my fastest times, unsure if placebo.
@Avera It's a mid engine'd car so it gets its power down much better than a F/R, but I still find TCS intrusive when driven hard on the street or track. Except for the first laps with cold tires on a 50F day, I typically run at the track with TCS off. That said, I've seen a guy turn ridiculous lap times with TCS on and driven in a very different style than I drive, so I can't argue with running it. My times with everything off have been my fastest times, unsure if placebo.
Mine definitely flashes when traction/stability control fully activated. . . perhaps yours does not because you have traction/stability control deactivated?
Now that I have been educated on fact that there is an MDM-like mode with the GT4, I am more inclined to experiment than I was thinking traction/stability control was an all-or-none proposition. Seems reasonable to suggest I might find ESC mode livens things up a bit while still having a level of safety activated? I might find the nannies are more intrusive than I realize? Maybe not?
Avera
01-09-2023, 08:03 PM
#15
I think we can take Walter Röhrl word as an actual fact...during the 718 GT4 launch he specifically mentioned that his times were almost identical with nannies ON or OFF.
When I did the Masters courses at PTX Alabama they actually y said to keep them ON, not worth to have them OFF...specially on GT cars.
Also, from my own personal experience the little light goes on and you feel intrusion when mistakes are made or you are not smooth.
Can I go a bit faster with the systems OFF? Maybe...but for DEs and track days I don't mind sacrificing 1/10 or 2/10th of a second for extra safety.
As GT3_Driver mentions not worth it unless your last name is Estre or Bernhard.
When I did the Masters courses at PTX Alabama they actually y said to keep them ON, not worth to have them OFF...specially on GT cars.
Also, from my own personal experience the little light goes on and you feel intrusion when mistakes are made or you are not smooth.
Can I go a bit faster with the systems OFF? Maybe...but for DEs and track days I don't mind sacrificing 1/10 or 2/10th of a second for extra safety.
As GT3_Driver mentions not worth it unless your last name is Estre or Bernhard.
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