Avera

So, I had some time and open (safe) roadways yesterday evening . . .

Remember where I am coming from . . . F87C and G80C. The former was practically undriveable unless MDM mode was activated, as the nannies were INCREDIBLY intrusive. Not to the same extent with the G80C, but still required MDM mode or a traction control setting of 6 or 7, at minimum, to tame the nanny intrusion.

In ESC mode I gradually pushed the car and, honestly, with one exception, I perceived absolutely no difference from having full traction/stability control activated. In other words, whatever nannies are in play with full traction/stability control, I could not perceive the difference in ESC mode.

The one exception being pulling aggressively through/out of turns, precisely when one would think traction/stability control would be most active. Very easy to get the rear end loose.

I am not interested in street drifting, and the only difference I perceive is the ability to do so in ESC mode.

In retrospect, the only time I ever saw the traction control icon flashing in the gauge cluster (engaged) was aggressive pulls through/out of turns. This should have told me it was only during those occasions when I was being ‘nannied.’

I can imagine experienced trackers might have value for ESC mode, or even traction and stability control completely disabled . . . I guess if you are striving for 10/10ths you do not want to be held back by a computer to 7 or 8 tenths

Avera

0-Day

This is technically true because the Porsche stability control (and I'm pretty sure the traction control too) uses light brake application on each individual corner as required to attempt to maintain what the system interprets as the intended car trajectory and traction should be. That having been said, if you are on a track for repeatedly braking from speeds 100+ to ~40mph for a ~20 min session, then the brake wear caused by the TCS/ECS automated brake application is infinitesimal compared to the massive brake wear generated by you manually braking on the track...

lovetoturn

"That having been said, IMHO there is absolutely no good reason to ever disable TCS or ECS in a 718 GT4 on the street - experienced driver or not."

and.........While on track use them as you see fit depending on your driving ability and financial risk tolerance. Simple as that.

Personally I leave them on most of the time, even at the track, unless I am really going for a fast lap and can stay hyper focussed 100% of the time.

Zhao

I don't disagree with your reasons for posting that, but maybe there is one reason. Maybe even 2. 1) Because the driver does not need the aids, and 2) to keep yourself trained with the limits of the car so you do not have any benefit of the aids with regards to safety. I've been driving my winter beater 1 series around all winter so far with no DSC/TC/whatever as the steering angle sensor went bad shortly after I got it and the part only just showed up and now I'm waiting for bmw to code it. It has good power, skinny 205 wide tires, a short wheel base, and our roads have been very icy this winter... and it's been good practice to be driving it without even the option to turn the aids back on. Too many cars with aids always on keeps me out of practice IMO so it's nice to have them off lately.

Applying that to the GT4 there would be less chance I would do something stupid with the right pedal with the aids off like WOT it in a corner. I feel a decent amount of people do that with the aids on as a normal practice.

JCviggen

#1 is sort of invalid because PSM can do things that you as the driver cannot, like apply brake to individual wheels. On tracks where it does not get in the way much (which is most) I leave it on just for the unforeseen circumstances that could arise. You can set pretty much the same lap time whether it's on or off, but if you like to slide around a bit on corner exits then it won't let you do that much.

By contrast the non-GT models have PSM programming that is so intrusive that you have to switch it off to explore the limits.

85Gold

@Avera

If you want to hoon around try https://autocross.cfrscca.org it's a safe environment to turn all the Nannie's off and explore the limits.

Peter

Avera

@85Gold

That looks really cool and fun!

Thank you for sharing.

Avera

jwr9152

I leave the nannies on on track and rarely do I find them intrusive. That includes during time trials. Was able to set two lap records this past year with the nannies on. If they do kick in it's just letting me know I'm driving bad.

For autox it is ridiculously intrusive and destroys your lap times. So I run with everything off.

lovetoturn

In reference to JC's comments on Zhoa above: not a big fan of #2 either "To keep yourself trained with the limits........." Well you won't be on top of things 100% of the time, and for that 1% of the time when you're definitely not on it, you could be sideways in a ditch before you know it with the nannies off. Learning how to drive at the limits will only come at the track or an autocross, and that ain't happening everyday. So for everyday driving you will never practice that skill set with any regularity and therefore not develop much muscle memory on how to apply such skills to your routine driving. Then there is always the chance of hitting oil, antifreeze, sand, dirt, debris, dead animals, having a puncture with a tire going down, hydroplaning, or having to make a sudden evasive maneuver. Your car will be more controllable with the nannies on in these situations. If you have not experienced any of the above, trust me, your day will come someday.

I have been teaching for over 5 years now, and the vast majority of beginner to advanced drivers still don't push their cars around that hard even on the track. Very little slip angle going for most people until they make a mistake. And those mistakes, of course, usually catch the drivers off guard. The yellow lights flash, the car mostly catches itself, and we continue on. So again, I would mostly leave the nannies on to protect your investment so you can live to fight another day without a large body shop bill or a totaled car. When you think you are getting good, get some help from qualified folks at an autocross or some free instruction at an HPDE event. Some of my friends are even paying $600-1200 per day for professional instruction to improve their skill sets. That is when the discussion of turning off the nannies in stages makes the most sense. At least IMHO. Safety is always paramount in my mind.

Avera

Another great post . . . thank you.

I gave ESC a whirl and described in above post. What I wanted to know is how much nanny intrusion is going on with full traction/stability control activation . . . as it turns out, little-to-none when it comes to my spirited daily driving.

That says a couple of things. (1) the GT4 chassis and supporting parts provide a very stable sport car; and (2) I do not push the limits of the car on the roadways anywhere near what others do at high speeds on the track pulling through/out of turns.

MY conclusion is the same as most others in this thread . . . little-to-nothing to be gained by turning traction/stability control off on the roadways with the GT4.

Probably a different story on a dry track with an experienced driver who gets paid to take risks posting winning lap times and has a sponsor to absorb the cost/benefit ratio.

Avera

BoxKing

Best advise within this thread were to seek professional instruction.
Not to push the limits of the GT4 on the track/street, but to know them. I for one will pursue instruction bc I’d hate to learn one day that I was only giving the car 60% of what she deserves, with hopes to come out a better driver who’s able to safely push the car to 80%+ when the conditions are right.

THX for starting this @Avera

ps… MDM mode, MDM Eero (upgrade on my end) is preset in M1 every time drive, even in “comfort”. Nannying in M cars even with sticky tires is atrocious!

Avera

@BoxKing

You got it!. . . I learn more on these forums than would ever be possible elsewhere. Lots of experienced enthusiasts.

Yep, the ///M cars are very intrusive with the nannies, although the G80C was far better than the F87C. Throughout this thread I have tried not sound like an arrogant hooligan because I am very respectful of others on the roadways. That said, I never felt unsafe in MDM mode or with the traction control system in the G80C because I was respectful of the dangers associated with being flippant. With this, you DO learn the limits of the car and how to manage the throttle. YES, I picked my spots to get sideways. Seems almost mandatory with the ///M cars

The GT4 is a different machine that is supposed to remain planted when being pushed, not sideways. As such, I have no desire to let the rear end get loose. I wanted to know how much the traction/stability control was intruding on things such as my throttle input . . . as it turns out, it only intrudes when you want it to and it is all but imperceptible to me when it does. All I get is a flashing icon in the gauge cluster out of the corner of my eye.

Avera

Avera

Given the same chassis, I assume the GT4 is just as capable of hooliganism if you have the interest. . . and skill

Avera

Zhao

I did say I leave the nannies on in the GT4 almost all the time and said "why risk it?" with regards to turning the aids off, so it's not like I'm saying everyone should turn them off, and nothing but respect for you and jcviggen with respect to driving (and if you knew me it is extremely rare for me to say that), but with my own experience, driving with aids off does improve my reflexes and muscle memory. It also re-achors me to being more precise with knowing where the limits are without having to find the limits, if that makes sense. Basically it takes a lot of the slop out of my driving. Where I am we have over half a year of offseason to build rust with respect to performance driving, and during that same time our winter roads are almost always on the edge of grip with just normal driving (we literally have times you could ice skate down the road). So here it's very easy to practice track level car control at very low speeds just with driving slightly faster than the normal speed of traffic for the conditions. We also have surprise black ice. On track don't forget surprise coolant dumps. My GT4 is the only car I've owned I've ever driven on track and used aids.

I've been instructing for awhile now too (since the late 00s) and I'd say there is value in teaching students with the aids off. I transitioned to recommending lapping day students keep the aids on a few years ago (mainly because 600hp with a first time student is stressful enough with aids on) but the schools I teach at we do have lessons that are best taught with aids off, and are designed to put cars in situations where they will likely spin out the first or 2nd lap. That session is the session I almost always see the most improvement in my student in a very small amount of laps, and it usually also gives them confidence to push the car even harder after because they understand how it works better and how to catch it better. I would also say anyone serious about learning track driving should probably buy a cheap used miata or 986 boxster or another rwd car they feel comfortable potentially damaging on track and run that as a driver training car with zero aids until they acquire a high level skill set and then transition to the cars we own on here. That is reducing risk better than never turning the aids off and relying on them fully IMO.

Avera

Thank you @Zhao

Your points are well taken and in keeping with what I believe others have stated.

A key point being you need to know your environment. Learning to safely push a car with nannies off is not difficult. As you suggest, the learning curve is not long/steep in the proper environment.

The real problems arise when one ignores their environment; fails to recognize their own limits; and is flippant toward the ‘surprises’ that lurk on both the roadways and track.

My GT4 will continue to have full traction/stability control activated on the roadways. . . the nannies are not intrusive.

Avera