Avera

@enduro

Yep, that would explain the difference. Once you turn off stability/traction control it appears your light just illuminates to let you know it is off.

In my instance where I have always had it on, it flashes to let me know when it is actively engaged. I am not starring at gauges, rather, can see it flashing in my peripheral field.

Avera

enduro

Just realized at the end of the Caddy vid, you can see the guilty 'Vette dumping coolant. I noticed the Caddy wiggle some in the braking zone.

cpxchewy

There's 2 traction lights on the rev counter btw. One should always stay on when ESC/TC is off and the other will flash when the car reels you in.

I didn't realize MDM also still managed ESC. My bad for misinformation. When I used it in the M2C it allowed all the slip angle I needed on autocross tracks to tell. In the same situation, it cut power to the wheel to prevent powersliding too much and fully slip.
The same goes for GT4. I can hold the oversteer and correct myself but having TC cut the power on the rear helps quit a bit in catching the car.

Definitely try it in a safe place. I've never left MDM on outside of trackwork and autocross and I wouldn't run ESC off or ESC + TC off outside of safe areas too.

Avera

@cpxchewy

No worries . . . either way, with MDM or ESC modes, we are clearly giving up some of our safety net.

Speaking purely of traction/stability control, the difference between the GT4 and F87C is not even comparable when each is fully activated. The F87C was practically undriveable given the extent of nanny intrusion, while the GT4 nannies are SEEMINGLY imperceptible. I turned on MDM mode the first week I obtained my F87C and never turned it off after that.

Getting back to the GT4, there are certain features that we do not recognize until we 'fiddle' with their function. At that point each individual driver decides whether they like that function. I will try out ESC mode to see if it has been providing more nanny input that I realized, and whether I prefer ESC mode over fully activated traction/stability control.

I am by no means dismissing the traction/stability control systems, but even with the F87C, ultimate control was associated with the right foot (throttle input). As I stated in prior post, the S55 (and S58 in the G80C) are torque monsters that made learning chassis response to throttle input a bit more challenging . . . compared to the more linear response to throttle input with the GT4 NA flat6.

Avera

Evo X

I put 30k miles combined between my 2 GT4s over 4 years. Drove most of the time with esc/tc off and found it very fun and not very difficult. Linear power, long gearing, good grip, well balanced chassis. Give it a go. I drive my Ferraris in CT Off and Huracan Evo RWD with ESC Sport. I prefer my cars being playful. Can enjoy this way without going crazy speeds.

Avera

Excellent post @Evo X

I tried to express this in my original and subsequent posts. . . I am not looking to be a street hooligan trying to drift around every corner I take.

You use the word 'playful' which I equate to an awareness for what the car and roadways safely allow with some driver input to throttle. If proper respect is applied, this can open new interfaces that might be lost through nannies associated with the traction/stability control.

Again, this was a no-brainer with the F87C and G80C. Less apparent with the GT4, which is why I started this thread to inquire about the experience of other enthusiasts. The responses have been great.

At this point, I think ESC mode is likely relatively safe given proper respect. The question that remains is whether I appreciate any my driving enjoyment in ESC mode than with full traction/stability activated? I will report back once I get some seat time with ESC.

Avera

enduro

@Avera One observation I have is the car is extremely snappy if you do something like spin the tires via power while turning right from a stop sign and will very quickly get into tank slapper mode in this situation. So be on your toes. But on the track and in most other scenarios, I find it forgiving considering its max grip. Esp when playing with the throttle while set in a corner.

Avera

@enduro

I appreciate your continuing feedback . . . all the way back to our original discussions pertaining to the Race Pipe

I understand the 'snappy' coming from the F87C and G80C. I never asked you, but suspect you have some seat time in one or both of those cars and understand what happens when the right foot gets over-enthused. All h*ll breaks lose - meaning the rear end - which is great if that is your intention.

My point being, coming out of a sharp turn aggressively or turning into one similarly is a known setup for loss of traction/stability, and requires throttle awareness. The right foot is the key factor.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the GT4 and its NA flat6 is quite linear compared to the S55 and S58 that throw their torque up all over you. . . as soon as those babies are spooled it is like letting go of a rubber band as the turbo/torque 'kick in.' If drifting and other feats of hooligans is your objective, the ///M cars can be the perfect drift machines. H*ll, my G80C had a drift analyzer to grade the quality of my drifts . . . never used it once, but that seems to be a big selling point for ///M car enthusiasts. Not sure why???

Anyway, as with others in this thread, your points are well taken. Aggressive acceleration out of tight turns is exactly the (only) scenario my gauge icon flashes indicating traction/stability control is actively engaged. Have not otherwise noticed it flashing as of yet. . . I never f*ck around on wet roadways and would never turn traction/stability control off under such conditions.

Avera

enduro

Actually, not a lot of time with the G80, but a ton of time in a C6Z and e90M, which I find to be complete pussycats in that scenario (executed hundreds (thousands?) of time in those) whereas I gotta get opposite lock dialed in about 3x as aggressively in the GT4. I attribute it partially to the GT4's much better grip on the power tires (much more weight on them) and prob a bit less to the mid engine layout's smaller polar moment. May also be PTM related. But I've only experienced the very unexpected snap for that one scenario thus far. On the track, trail braking and off throttle over steer when set in a corner has been very controllable, on throttle oversteer at higher speeds has been fine, tho the car still rotates quicker on throttle than do my FR cars.

GoodRevrnd

Is ESC power cuts and TC brake modulation?

Zhao

Context is everything, as well as motives.

Rohrl isn't driving cars to set lap records and he hasn't in decades if my memory serves me. It's quite possible, and very likely he is not the driver he once was (I dont see how he would be). At 42 I am not the driver I once was. I have raced with retired professional drivers who were definitely not the drivers they once were. He also potentially doesn't even care about going 100% anymore so he could just be having fun at 98% instead of giving it his 100%. He proved himself and people change.

He could also be speaking lawyer friendly words. >99.9% of drivers are crap and will crash themselves out in a GT car without the drivers aids and then blame the car if they tried to push it at what they think is 100%. The very small handful of drivers that feel comfortable constantly dancing a car without aids on a race track dont need to pay attention to statements like his.

IMO the aids are still intrusive to the point where they hinder. They are annoying on corner exit, and very annoying at the start of a corner if the corner calls for oversteer rotation. But they are not annoying enough I 'need' to turn them off to have fun, and I almost always keep them on... still, they definitely hurt my lap times in some areas of some tracks. My thoughts are it's a street car, a very expensive one at that, and while I do not think I'd ever lose focus enough to make a mistake, why risk it? Race cars or cheap track cars you can throw away are better for risking a crash.

0-Day

The 718 GT4 Traction and Stability control systems are excellent in my experience. The systems provide gradual, minimal, and generally helpful intervention at the limit. These systems can be very confidence inspiring for drivers wary of really pushing their expensive cars to the limit in safe, off-road environments. When I am instructing novice drivers in modern Porsches, I always recommend they start with all the "nannies" on because their systems are so good at letting less experienced drivers explore the performance limits of the car with gentle intervention. (Modern Lotus cars like the Evora also have excellent TCS/ECS systems too IMO.)

At the track or autoX, an experienced driver in dry, warm conditions will be faster in the GT4 with stability control disabled vs on. And a very experienced driver will be faster with both stability and traction controls off. However, some very experienced drivers still prefer to keep the TCS on to save on rear tire wear.

That having been said, IMHO there is absolutely no good reason to ever disable TCS or ECS in a 718 GT4 on the street - experienced driver or not.

BoxKing

Its my understanding that leaving TCS/ECS on during track days, and spirited back-road drives increases brake wear.... is this correct?

nitro805

So, non GT4 cars have drive modes; normal, sport, and sport+ if equipped. I thought those modes each made esc less aggressive. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I very much might be), but it was my understanding that a GT4 was always in "sport+" mode. It should allow fairly aggressive driving without turning any of the nannies off.

Avera

^^^^ Excellent!