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I have really enjoyed this thread. Thanks to everyone for being civilized.
In the end, the “reasons” why we struggle to define the differences is because we are looking for logical answers. These cars are not logical. They are emotional. And we end up with the car that ultimately tugs at our soul….even if there is some logic involved. We can even be emotional about being logical. But a six figure car is not logical l…any way you slice it.
If we absolutely HAD to buy one of these cars based on logic alone, the VAST majority would be GTS…because that is the more logical choice in almost all cases.
I bought a Spyder because I liked it. And it’s pretty…the prettiest car made today(IMO). All of its heritage and underpinnings just make it that much more better…to me. It is special. It is a special driving experience. It makes me feel special when I drive it. It is special to just look at. Did I mention…. it is pretty!!!
And I will admit that the “specialness” is important to me. The GT4/Spyder are a bit more “special”. Just my opinion. I started this journey aimed at the GTS. The one to my spec was $105k. My Spyder came in at $115k…WITH LESS COMFY AND CONVENIENCE OPTIONS. That $10k difference was worth it to me even though my car is slightly less comfortable and convenient. And that difference is measured in emotion…not logic. Obviously there needs to be some substance behind that emotion and the Spyder has plenty.
All my opinion…and emotion 🤪🤪
Well said. I agree that much of these decisions are made based on emotion vs logic. If you try to bring too much logic into the decision, you will end up making the wrong one and we would all be driving around in EV Sedans.
With that being said, I do think a sense of honesty with regards to how you will actually use the car is important. Do I think the majority of GT car owners purchase their cars with the dream of weekend track days and canyon runs, but find themselves primarily using the car to run errands or take the wife out to dinner? Absolutely. Obviously, this is the case as shown by the typical number of previous owners that low mileage GT cars have. It's not uncommon for a sub 10k mile GT3 to have 4 or 5 PO's.
Personally, if I didn't have several other "normal" vehicles, I wouldn't own any GT cars. Why? IMHO, once you try to make a GT car be something other than a unique experience that you enjoy a couple of times per week, it goes from being something special and becomes a bit of a chore. It's the same thing with air-cooled cars. I love my air-cooled 911. I would never want it to be my only car... Not because it couldn't be. I could absolutely make it work. It would just turn it into something else and harm the specialness of the experience.
So I say all that to simply say, these decisions should be emotionally based but just make sure that emotion is based on reality and not fantasy.
I think the Boxster/Cayman suspension architecture is just starting to show its age compared to the competition is all. It's architecturally an old car at this point. No real excuse for not having multilink on the rear other than just cost and to avoid stepping on the 911, but blatant cost cutting stings on what is a very expensive car.
Well said. I agree that much of these decisions are made based on emotion vs logic. If you try to bring too much logic into the decision, you will end up making the wrong one and we would all be driving around in EV Sedans.
With that being said, I do think a sense of honesty with regards to how you will actually use the car is important. Do I think the majority of GT car owners purchase their cars with the dream of weekend track days and canyon runs, but find themselves primarily using the car to run errands or take the wife out to dinner? Absolutely. Obviously, this is the case as shown by the typical number of previous owners that low mileage GT cars have. It's not uncommon for a sub 10k mile GT3 to have 4 or 5 PO's.
Personally, if I didn't have several other "normal" vehicles, I wouldn't own any GT cars. Why? IMHO, once you try to make a GT car be something other than a unique experience that you enjoy a couple of times per week, it goes from being something special and becomes a bit of a chore. It's the same thing with air-cooled cars. I love my air-cooled 911. I would never want it to be my only car... Not because it couldn't be. I could absolutely make it work. It would just turn it into something else and harm the specialness of the experience.
So I say all that to simply say, these decisions should be emotionally based but just make sure that emotion is based on reality and not fantasy.
That is so perfectly said!!! I have an air cooled car as well....a 1985 Carrera. Indeed a special car. Not a convenient or comfortable car at all. And it is a special experience when I drive it. Mechanical clutch...steering...brakes. It is not an easy car to drive. I can put my hand on the steering wheel and extend my fingers and hit the windshield!!! Anyway....
As far as your fantasy versus reality....you hit the nail squarely on the head. I come from boats and have had boats my entire life(non trailerable marina boats). People come to me asking for advice about boats and I tell them EXACTLY what you said. There is the "dream"...and there is reality. THe closer those two are together, the more "successful" the purchase will be. Sadly, there are a LOT of dreamers that buy boats. And many wonder why so many boats sit in marinas and never get used? That is the exact reason. They had a dream! And it was too far away from reality. Same goes for (toy)cars I guess. I don't even take my Spyder to dinner. In many cases, it is "rougher" than a GT4 in that the soft top lets in a LOT of noise. We have a Cayenne...that makes a lot more sense for dinner. Now if we are talking lunch at a waterside eatery on a nice day????.....hell friggin yeah....Spyder it is!! Top down. But again, that is a special day.
PS....I have a little more hope for the up and coming generations. When I drive the air cooled car, the teens and 20 somethings swarm it...they love it!!! I personally didn't think the younger ones would even notice. But they do!!!
Terry, Thanks for the detailed response! I'm considering another set of wheels with a tire alternative since it does get chilly here this time of the year and I have to work the Cup2's pretty hard and for a while, before they get to desired temps. I have a second set of wheels for the GT3 with PS4S installed and they are better than the Cup2's in the chillier weather but they are still a little sketchy when pushing the car with low outside temps.
I may check out the AS4's since the only reason for the second set of wheels is purely low temps.
As far as raising the GT4 slightly for some extra clearance ground clearance, I personally don't see that as much of a compromise since the suspension is made to be adjustable and you still have proper alignment. I'm still on my first lip on the GT4 (probably 4th or 5th replacement on the GT3) so I know the day is coming when it's going to take some major damage
BTW, huge congrats. 76 and driving a GT4! Total life goals right there I hope you enjoy it in good health for many more years!
phow,
I may check out the AS4's since the only reason for the second set of wheels is purely low temps.
If you want the Best of the Best for Cold, Rain, and general use click on the link below.
Continue to roll the pages down to see all content on the Michelin AS/4 (Ultra High Performance All-Season) tires.
I have spend a great many hrs. researching these tires and they are the right ones for a Porsche.
That is so perfectly said!!! I have an air cooled car as well....a 1985 Carrera. Indeed a special car. Not a convenient or comfortable car at all. And it is a special experience when I drive it. Mechanical clutch...steering...brakes. It is not an easy car to drive. I can put my hand on the steering wheel and extend my fingers and hit the windshield!!! Anyway....
As far as your fantasy versus reality....you hit the nail squarely on the head. I come from boats and have had boats my entire life(non trailerable marina boats). People come to me asking for advice about boats and I tell them EXACTLY what you said. There is the "dream"...and there is reality. THe closer those two are together, the more "successful" the purchase will be. Sadly, there are a LOT of dreamers that buy boats. And many wonder why so many boats sit in marinas and never get used? That is the exact reason. They had a dream! And it was too far away from reality. Same goes for (toy)cars I guess. I don't even take my Spyder to dinner. In many cases, it is "rougher" than a GT4 in that the soft top lets in a LOT of noise. We have a Cayenne...that makes a lot more sense for dinner. Now if we are talking lunch at a waterside eatery on a nice day????.....hell friggin yeah....Spyder it is!! Top down. But again, that is a special day.
PS....I have a little more hope for the up and coming generations. When I drive the air cooled car, the teens and 20 somethings swarm it...they love it!!! I personally didn't think the younger ones would even notice. But they do!!!
1000% agree and beautiful Targa.
You are also totally correct about your observation with the younger generation. My aircooled 911 gets more attention from everyone from kids to early 20-something’s than any other vehicle I have/had. It gives me hope that there will always be a place for these cars
If you want the Best of the Best for Cold, Rain, and general use click on the link below.
Continue to roll the pages down to see all content on the Michelin AS/4 (Ultra High Performance All-Season) tires.
I have spend a great many hrs. researching these tires and they are the right ones for a Porsche.
I think the GTS 4.0 is a great option but I also think some in this thread are downplaying the differences between GTS and GT4. A member in another thread summarized it very well:
Entire front clip and mount is 991.2 GT3. Axle and ratio, brakes, suspension, etc. Obviously rear is ME unique but same GT3 suspension.
Brakes, wheels, tires, PASM, PSM, etc are different. One is a GT division car the other top range 718.
PDK, gets the GT specific programmed unit that comes in the GT4.
The engine makes more power, RL is higher, makes max HP higher, max TQ band wider as well.
The differences aren’t simply a softer suspension and lack of a wing. If you have driven them back to back, they feel like very different cars. Personally I feel the 4.0 being available in the GTS makes the two models appear to be more closely related than they really are.
This post is not meant to be disparaging towards the GTS in any way. I just wanted to point out the key differences so others doing research and be better informed.
I really hate to revive an old thread like this, but I have been meaning to ask about the GT4 PDK (which I have heard referred to as PDKS???), compared to the GTS 4.0 PDK. Can you share the differences in the PDK programming? Thank you!
I really hate to revive an old thread like this, but I have been meaning to ask about the GT4 PDK (which I have heard referred to as PDKS???), compared to the GTS 4.0 PDK. Can you share the differences in the PDK programming? Thank you!
To be clear, I do not have any first-hand experience with PDK in either the GTS or GT4. However, I feel its safe to assume the programming will be similar to what Porsche does with Carrera PDK vs GT3 PDKS.
The key takeaway with PDKS is much faster/harder shifts, especially in the higher RPM range.
I also noticed PDK is quicker from GT3 to GT3RS in the last-gen 991's but someone else will have to confirm if they are truly different or not. It will be interesting to see what programming the GT4 RS gets.
In the flagship 718 Spyder and 718 Cayman GT4 models, the driving mode has a characteristic that’s typical of the GT variants: it can be programmed for maximum performance using the PDK Sport button. An automatic selector lever, which echoes the design in the 911 GT3, underlines the emotionally charged GT experience. The seventh gear of the PDK has a shorter ratio in all 718 four-litre naturally aspirated engine derivatives.
In addition, the PDK versions of the 718 Spyder and 718 Cayman GT4 benefit from the enhancements made to their mechanical locking rear differential: in traction and overrun modes, this achieves locking values of 30 and 37 per cent as compared with 22 and 27 per cent with the manual transmission. This has a positive effect on the longitudinal and lateral dynamics as well as traction, and increases driving pleasure.
I really hate to revive an old thread like this, but I have been meaning to ask about the GT4 PDK (which I have heard referred to as PDKS???), compared to the GTS 4.0 PDK. Can you share the differences in the PDK programming? Thank you!
It is what other manufacturers such as BMW do in M cars, allowing selection of dual clutch speed vs comfort. For example BMW M3 allows 3 dual clutch settings to select (comfort, sport, Sport+). Porsche doesnt have this option to switch. Assume GT4 is always Sport+, whilst GTS is Sport . With the M3 it not only changes speed and aggression of shift, but also holds gears longer before upshift and more aggressive engine braking.
It is what other manufacturers such as BMW do in M cars, allowing selection of dual clutch speed vs comfort. For example BMW M3 allows 3 dual clutch settings to select (comfort, sport, Sport+). Porsche doesnt have this option to switch. Assume GT4 is always Sport+, whilst GTS is Sport . With the M3 it not only changes speed and aggression of shift, but also holds gears longer before upshift and more aggressive engine braking.
^ This +1. My 991 GT3 had the PDKS button but the GT4 does not appear to share this functionality. Therefore the GT4 is in PDKS at all times.
I could see this potentially being an issue for some. When I drive the GT3, the PDKS button is one of the first things I push upon startup. But I always drive the car with paddles and prefer the quicker high RPM shifts. When my wife drives the GT3, she leaves it in auto and prefers the normal PDK setting.
There was also a noticeable difference between 991.1 and .2 PDKS with 991.1 being far more aggressive in auto.
Personally, if I was going PDK on a GT4, I would need some seat time with the PDK in auto to see how liveable it is. If it is anything like PDKS in the 991.1 GT3, I think I would need to commit to paddles only.
Ohhh okay I see. I didn't know there was not an option to change between comfort and sport mode. Frankly, I don't care because I pretty much kept both my M3 and M4 in Sport+ mode at all times anyway (unless I was in the grocery store parking lot or something). Thanks for your quick responses on this gentlemen. This is truly one hell of a forum.
Paddles only is the lifestyle! I wonder if you can hit both at the same time for that quick neutral and rev?
Ohhh okay I see. I didn't know there was not an option to change between comfort and sport mode. Frankly, I don't care because I pretty much kept both my M3 and M4 in Sport+ mode at all times anyway (unless I was in the grocery store parking lot or something). Thanks for your quick responses on this gentlemen. This is truly one hell of a forum.
Paddles only is the lifestyle! I wonder if you can hit both at the same time for that quick neutral and rev?
Happy to assist! The GT3 PDKS allowed for a neutral shift by holding both paddles. I would assume it would be the same for GT4 but someone else would need to confirm.
Ohhh okay I see. I didn't know there was not an option to change between comfort and sport mode. Frankly, I don't care because I pretty much kept both my M3 and M4 in Sport+ mode at all times anyway (unless I was in the grocery store parking lot or something). Thanks for your quick responses on this gentlemen. This is truly one hell of a forum.
Paddles only is the lifestyle! I wonder if you can hit both at the same time for that quick neutral and rev?
The GTS PDK may actually change PDK tuning/map based on drive mode select. I'd be surprised if it didn't, as even my SUV does that.
02-11-2022, 04:17 PM
I hope you enjoy it in good health for many more years!
