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I am a Porschepile and am privileged to own several Porsches right now (991.2, 981, 982) in addition to having owned 991.2 GT3, 991 GTS, and having a Spyder RS on order.
I was also privileged to be a Ferrari collector for 14 years before giving up the Ferrari hobby back in 2018.
Here are my 2 cents.
There is not a single car that Porsche has ever made — from the beginning right up until current GT3 RS — that drives as well as, for example, a Ferrari 360 Modena. I got into my brother’s 360 (6-speed manual) a few months ago which I hadn’t driven in some years. The feel of the steering is superior in every way to whatever Porsche offers. The connection to the car via the transmission is superior to that of all the manual Porsches I’ve driven and owned. The Ferrari is more or less put together like crap in terms of finish and ergonomics, but as a driver’s car there’s just no comparison. The drivetrain in a car like the 360 is perfection. Naturally, the cars that came after the 360 are even better (except maybe for steering feel).
I owned an F430 6-speed and I can say the same about it. It’s even better than the 360, even if I prefer the sound of the 360 engine a bit.
Porsche is a great machine. It’s reliable, and it’s engineered using a fine scalpel. But it’s done within a budget and within a market. If Porsche cared to compete against Ferrari and build something at a higher price point to match it, I have no doubt the Porsche would be a better product overall.
There is no comparison between 458 Spider and 718 anything. You buy the Porsche because you like the Porsche more for some reason; you don’t buy the Porsche because you think on paper it’s better than the Ferrari. The Ferrari has the soul factor to which the Porsche only comes about 80% close. The Ferrari is also a car that is engineered with zero compromises: zero compromises in cost to build, zero compromises in terms of performance characteristics such as weight distribution, power delivery, etc. For Ferrari, performance is first and convenience is not considered until later, for better or for worse.
The 458 Spider is an outstanding machine, and so is the 718 Spyder. As a 981 Spyder owner I’d say it’s difficult to have more fun than the fun to be had in a 981/982 Spyder — just different kind of fun. The 458 Spider may be less fun because it lacks the manual or actually has too much power, but it may be more fun because it has arguably the best naturally aspirated engine ever produced together with a marvelous transmission — all packaged together with the prancing horse monikers all over the car, which for most people stir the soul like nothing else.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A test drive would solve the issue.
Agree regarding everything that has been said regarding the experience both good and bad of driving a 458, and 430. I’ve never personally experienced a 360. The sound alone of the 430 and 458 is worth the price of admission, and frankly beats any NA Porsche.
However, I don’t believe that Ferrari achieved the engine figures they claimed for the 458. As another poster commented in this thread, 458s have been dynoed and found to have around 500hp at the crank, not 562. Same with torque. It’s closer to 360, not 398.
Modern 4.0L porsche GT cars achieve far more hp/liter vs a 430/458 because Porsche is honest and Ferrari is “optimistic”
But as ipse mentioned, the Ferrari came out almost 15 years ago, so not completely fair to compare the two.
Truth be told, the flat six in most Porsche 911s sound pretty pedestrians. A GT3 sounds epic above 6k, but anything below that (where a person spends most of their time) the cars sounds like a dump truck with a broken muffler.
Actually, yes. Ferrari doesn’t give a f*ck. Trust me — I spent over $35k removing and replacing sticky buttons on 11 Ferraris over the years. They don’t know how to properly finish a car — they know how to engineer a car for performance.
The Speciale is not a proper comp to the "regular" 718 Spyder.
You would have to compare the SRS to the Speciale.
Agreed.
And the Speciale/Aperta is superior to just about everything. The best naturally aspirated street engine ever produced in the history of the world, without much debate.
Edit:
<<The best naturally aspirated street engine on a regular production car (excludes Hyper-cars) ever produced in the history of the world, without much debate.>>
And the Speciale/Aperta is superior to just about everything. The best naturally aspirated street engine ever produced in the history of the world, without much debate.
How are you. Good, good. Well then. Yes, I see your point. However I do not consider your cars regular production street cars. Yes, yes — yes I know they are street legal. But they are specialty cars, or let’s say Hyper cars.
All right then. I’ll modify my statement to say “regular production” street cars.
Okay Mr. Murray, good speaking with you. Oh, before you go — any chance you have an extra allocation?
>>
Not sure how much I agree with his post critiquing GT3 engine torque or the “happiness” aspect of the GT3 engine. Otherwise, great post by <alcc>.
Torque is a function of engine displacement alone on a naturally aspirated engine. (On a forced induction engine, torque swells with boost.)
Do we all know that the 992 GT3 engine produces more torque per liter than ANY other naturally aspirated engine the world has ever produced (for street cars) in history… except for the engine in the 458!
We are talking 86.58 ft-lbs per liter for GT3. That’s a massive amount of torque for a given displacement. (The 458 produces a whopping 88.50 ft-lbs per liter). Go ahead and do the division on any other naturally aspirated engine and see that no other engines are at those numbers.
If we examine the torque curves for each engine, we see that at 3,000 RPMs, each engine is producing roughly 89% of full torque. The torque curves appear nearly identical in terms of distribution, don’t they? The GT3 engine cannot compete with the larger 458 engine in terms of peak torque since it’s a smaller engine, but let’s remember the GT3 engine has a smidgeon higher specific power output (125.8 bhp/L to 124.97 bhp/L in 458).
It’s reasonable to conclude the GT3 engine is the best naturally aspirated boxer engine ever made and that the 458 engine is the best naturally aspirated V8 engine ever made. Sure most of us prefer the Ferrari engine because it’s bigger and produces more power and torque (not to mention its glorious sound); but the GT3 engine is arguably the best 4-Liter (or less) street engine ever produced, and it’s virtually identical in terms of its attributes despite having two fewer cylinders.
I understand what you are saying on paper and via the numbers but the butt dyno says different. Don't get me wrong, I love both Porsche and Ferrari and had the privilege of owning both but there is something magical about Ferrari na engines. That being said, I am getting a Spyder rs not because it is objectively better than a ferrari but rather because it is the most "Ferrari" thing that Porsche has ever done (in my humble opinion) and is the ultimate fun Sunday morning car that is reliable and "affordable" to maintain with a brand new car warranty at a "reasonable" price.
I understand what you are saying on paper and via the numbers but the butt dyno says different. Don't get me wrong, I love both Porsche and Ferrari and had the privilege of owning both but there is something magical about Ferrari na engines. That being said, I am getting a Spyder rs not because it is objectively better than a ferrari but rather because it is the most "Ferrari" thing that Porsche has ever done (in my humble opinion) and is the ultimate fun Sunday morning car that is reliable and "affordable" to maintain with a brand new car warranty at a "reasonable" price.
I hadn’t known about the dyno thing with Ferrari 458. I really don’t tend to believe it after taking a cursory look, but I understand there has been extensive discussion and research on this topic which again I just became acquainted with.
Otherwise I agree 100% with everything you said, and I am buying a Spyder RS for reasons identical to yours 👊
How are you. Good, good. Well then. Yes, I see your point. However I do not consider your cars regular production street cars. Yes, yes — yes I know they are street legal. But they are specialty cars, or let’s say Hyper cars.
All right then. I’ll modify my statement to say “regular production” street cars.
Okay Mr. Murray, good speaking with you. Oh, before you go — any chance you have an extra allocation?
>>
There was a video with one of the car mags that went to Gordon's place during his development of the t50 and he specifically said that Porsche's gt engine sacrifices everything (including mid range torque) for the top end power...which he doesn't agree with.
Not sure how much I agree with his post critiquing GT3 engine torque or the “happiness” aspect of the GT3 engine. Otherwise, great post by <alcc>.
Torque is a function of engine displacement alone on a naturally aspirated engine. (On a forced induction engine, torque swells with boost.)
Do we all know that the 992 GT3 engine produces more torque per liter than ANY other naturally aspirated engine the world has ever produced (for street cars) in history… except for the engine in the 458!
Your statement on torque is not true. In fact, you contradict that assertion in your next sentence.
I, too, have looked at HP/torque curves on that site. But they are "theoretical" and do not remotely match actual dyno pulls. Nearly all dyno charts I've seen show a midrange dip in the GT3 engine. Pretty sure I am feeling that dip. Is that due to the OPF?
In terms of performance I have been puzzled by the GT3 engine in my 4RS. I also have a 6MT C-GTS 4.0. It's my daily. Naturally, I have done back to back reasonably controlled pulls between the 2 cars. My butt dyno and crude measurements show no material difference between the racing 4.0 and the "cooking" 4.0 up to 7000 rpm. That puzzles me. The biggest difference is the sound. The 4RS growls and howls like a wounded animal. Lots of sound and fury for sure. But, if anything, the disconnect between the non-linear crescendo of sounds and the resolutely linear power delivery confuses my senses. My F430 lives at a different house/location, so can't do comparable pulls. But the F430 feels quicker. That puzzles me, too. On paper and per reviews, the 4RS should be significantly quicker. But the F430 positively flies once it hits 4500. It gets up on its toes and sings and flings itself to redline. Ok, it feels scary as hell. The 4RS in similar pulls feels hunkered down, planted. But the Ferrari feels quicker, more fun (because scary).
In terms of visceral feel I am even more puzzled. Believe it or not, this has to do with engine-braking. The 4RS responds with noticeable engine braking on lift-throttle, giving it a "draggy", heavy sensation. The C-GTS 4.0 does not feel that way. But I figure that could just be down to its significantly taller gearing. My F430 has the F1 tranny with similar gearing to the 4RS. So, more apples-apples. But I do not notice any engine braking effect from the Ferrari. Note: this lack of engine braking may in fact reinforce the sensation of a free-revving, low-inertia engine. But why the difference? Is the Ferrari ECU keeping the engine rpm up, whereas the 4RS ECU allows the rpm to drop off a cliff? It's got to be. If so, which is the "correct" implementation?
It seems to me with throttle-by-wire cars, the ECU can do lots to "virtually" improve the character of the engine, like enabling a lighter-weight flywheel. I mean, if the ECU can do autoblips on downshifts, how hard can it be to assist (if necessary) in upshifts -- you know, not let the rpms fall too fast or too far? Related: maybe that is why the 430 feels me to have a significantly faster throttle response in neutral than the 4RS. Sure feels like it has a lighter flywheel. I have heard reviewers rave about the GT3 engine's throttle response. To be honest, to me it feels rather pedestrian, at least in the 4RS. No doubt the 911R and the S/T with their single mass LWFW are a different story.
I know I sound like I am knocking the 4RS. I am not. It is a great car. That engine may be great, too. It is entirely possible, even likely, that an engine built to race all day cannot be built to also feel light and "happy."
As I said, street Porsches and Ferraris are like night and day. Only option is... to have both!
There was a video with one of the car mags that went to Gordon's place during his development of the t50 and he specifically said that Porsche's gt engine sacrifices everything (including mid range torque) for the top end power...which he doesn't agree with.
Again, let’s look at the GT3 torque graph (which I shared above in post #44 and let’s study the torque graphs of other naturally aspirated engines for comparison to the GT3’s torque graph. I just don’t see how that claim can be made. There’s 89% of torque available at 3,000 RPMs at a proportion per liter greater than that of any other naturally aspirated engine (in street cars, regular production) in history (except one other car: 458). That’s mid-range torque if I’ve ever known the concept.
Gordon Murray is the man, but I’m not putting all my eggs in the basket of one man over the basket of the folks who implement the product known as Porsche.
=====
Also: I do not trust an independent dyno result over a proper torque curve graph like the one I shared in post #44. Others may, but I won’t.
I understand what you are saying on paper and via the numbers but the butt dyno says different. Don't get me wrong, I love both Porsche and Ferrari and had the privilege of owning both but there is something magical about Ferrari na engines. That being said, I am getting a Spyder rs not because it is objectively better than a ferrari but rather becauseit is the most "Ferrari" thing that Porsche has ever done (in my humble opinion) and is the ultimate fun Sunday morning car that is reliable and "affordable" to maintain with a brand new car warranty at a "reasonable" price.
That's my take. I've said all along, the spyder design is so much more interesting than standard Porsche fare, that the Italian intern must have snuck into the Porsche design studio, and left something for them to find the next morning (a la Good Will Hunting). Now that they have put THE Porsche racing motor in it...this is the car to get / own / enjoy / keep. This side of a CGT (which loses in looks to a spyder, easily, IMO), this is THE Porsche I want. Throw in that intake howl and...<chef's kiss>.
Your statement on torque is not true. In fact, you contradict that assertion in your next sentence.
I, too, have looked at HP/torque curves on that site. But they are "theoretical" and do not remotely match actual dyno pulls. Nearly all dyno charts I've seen show a midrange dip in the GT3 engine. Pretty sure I am feeling that dip. Is that due to the OPF?
In terms of performance I have been puzzled by the GT3 engine in my 4RS. I also have a 6MT C-GTS 4.0. It's my daily. Naturally, I have done back to back reasonably controlled pulls between the 2 cars. My butt dyno and crude measurements show no material difference between the racing 4.0 and the "cooking" 4.0 up to 7000 rpm. That puzzles me. The biggest difference is the sound. The 4RS growls and howls like a wounded animal. Lots of sound and fury for sure. But, if anything, the disconnect between the non-linear crescendo of sounds and the resolutely linear power delivery confuses my senses. My F430 lives at a different house/location, so can't do comparable pulls. But the F430 feels quicker. That puzzles me, too. On paper and per reviews, the 4RS should be significantly quicker. But the F430 positively flies once it hits 4500. It gets up on its toes and sings and flings itself to redline. Ok, it feels scary as hell. The 4RS in similar pulls feels hunkered down, planted. But the Ferrari feels quicker, more fun (because scary).
In terms of visceral feel I am even more puzzled. Believe it or not, this has to do with engine-braking. The 4RS responds with noticeable engine braking on lift-throttle, giving it a "draggy", heavy sensation. The C-GTS 4.0 does not feel that way. But I figure that could just be down to its significantly taller gearing. My F430 has the F1 tranny with similar gearing to the 4RS. So, more apples-apples. But I do not notice any engine braking effect from the Ferrari. Note: this lack of engine braking may in fact reinforce the sensation of a free-revving, low-inertia engine. But why the difference? Is the Ferrari ECU keeping the engine rpm up, whereas the 4RS ECU allows the rpm to drop off a cliff? It's got to be. If so, which is the "correct" implementation?
It seems to me with throttle-by-wire cars, the ECU can do lots to "virtually" improve the character of the engine, like enabling a lighter-weight flywheel. I mean, if the ECU can do autoblips on downshifts, how hard can it be to assist (if necessary) in upshifts -- you know, not let the rpms fall too fast or too far? Related: maybe that is why the 430 feels me to have a significantly faster throttle response in neutral than the 4RS. Sure feels like it has a lighter flywheel. I have heard reviewers rave about the GT3 engine's throttle response. To be honest, to me it feels rather pedestrian, at least in the 4RS. No doubt the 911R and the S/T with their single mass LWFW are a different story.
I know I sound like I am knocking the 4RS. I am not. It is a great car. That engine may be great, too. It is entirely possible, even likely, that an engine built to race all day cannot be built to also feel light and "happy."
As I said, street Porsches and Ferraris are like night and day. Only option is... to have both!
Happy new year.
I take you at your word.
I owned 991.2 GT3 and I didn’t notice any dip — I thought the thing was torquey as hell, and I thought the same when I test drove 992 GT3 (which I really didn’t like due to the terribly light steering feel).
I also don’t know what you meant when you said I contradicted myself… I stated that torque is a function of engine displacement on a naturally aspirated engine. At a given displacement, there’s a ceiling on torque. To date, no naturally aspirated engine on a regular production street car has surpassed the 88.5 ft-lb/liter the Ferrari 458 engine exhibits — I’m going by manufacturer data; if we start questioning the data then we go down a rabbit hole in which all parties will support their sides with data and everyone will be correct.
Do you have an F-car? I have been (re)bitten by the F430 bug… I sold my F430 gated coupe back in 2018. There’s just no substitute for the violent wonderfulness of that engine. I like that engine even better than the 458 engine in terms of sound.
12-28-2023, 11:43 AM
