Headlight Discussion LED vs Bi-xenon
#76
That is correct the LED PDLS+ on the GT4/Spyder is not an active matrix system, but rather just a LED light source as opposed to HID or Halogen. As far as I know the beam shaping active matrix system is available on certain 911's and other models like the Taycan and Panamera, just not the 718 family at this time.
#77
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thanks for the response. Disappointing as the actual LED units are likely the same as those offered outside of NA where the configurators indicate dynamic high beam control is functional and are inactivated at the factory for NA . As this function is allowed in Canada then should just be a matter of finding a way of activating the matrix lighting. One of the questions I posed to my SA was whether or not the service dept could/would activate the matrix function if it was deactivated - we'll see what his response is but I expect it will be a negative. The way it is now the option should be called LED-PDLS and not PDLS+.
The '+' in PDLS+ plus signifies the ability of the headlight to adjust its high beam setting based on oncoming traffic, automatically dipping the hi-beams when it detects that you are close to another vehicle, the camera for this is in the windshield.
#78
Three Wheelin'
I went with the LED lights. To me the biggest reason for this is not so much about bi-xenon vs LED, but the headlights have got to swivel around the corners. On the those early morning spirited drives to the track, in the dark, out in the country side; I don't want to run over a small animal, or hit a deer, or some other livestock out for a morning stroll. So for me it is a safety thing. Must be able to see around a dark corner on a two lane country road. Once you have checked the $1,500 box for the bi-xenons, you might as well go "all in" for the LEDs for another $640, and have Porsche's best. Yes the Porsche tax strikes again.
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DFW01TT (12-27-2020)
#79
I went with the LED lights. To me the biggest reason for this is not so much about bi-xenon vs LED, but the headlights have got to swivel around the corners. On the those early morning spirited drives to the track, in the dark, out in the country side; I don't want to run over a small animal, or hit a deer, or some other livestock out for a morning stroll. So for me it is a safety thing. Must be able to see around a dark corner on a two lane country road. Once you have checked the $1,500 box for the bi-xenons, you might as well go "all in" for the LEDs for another $640, and have Porsche's best. Yes the Porsche tax strikes again.
#80
Drifting
I went with the LED lights. To me the biggest reason for this is not so much about bi-xenon vs LED, but the headlights have got to swivel around the corners. On the those early morning spirited drives to the track, in the dark, out in the country side; I don't want to run over a small animal, or hit a deer, or some other livestock out for a morning stroll. So for me it is a safety thing. Must be able to see around a dark corner on a two lane country road. Once you have checked the $1,500 box for the bi-xenons, you might as well go "all in" for the LEDs for another $640, and have Porsche's best. Yes the Porsche tax strikes again.
LED gains auto high beam.
#81
#82
Rennlist Member
LED & PDSL+
Little night drive (sanity drive from the family), with LED and PDSL+. Some different lighting conditions shot with a Hero4 on the luggage bar.
Yes, it was below freezing, yes I have snows mounted.
Hope the video helps someone on the fence. Be great to see something similar from someone with Halogens.
Cheers.
Yes, it was below freezing, yes I have snows mounted.
Hope the video helps someone on the fence. Be great to see something similar from someone with Halogens.
Cheers.
Last edited by phefner; 01-08-2021 at 01:25 PM.
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#83
#84
Rennlist Member
Little night drive (sanity drive from the family), with LED and PDSL+. Some different lighting conditions shot with a Hero4 on the luggage bar.
Yes, it was below freezing, yes I have snows mounted.
Hope the video helps someone on the fence. Be great to see something similar from someone with Halogens.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/cVrk4vbYAg4
Yes, it was below freezing, yes I have snows mounted.
Hope the video helps someone on the fence. Be great to see something similar from someone with Halogens.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/cVrk4vbYAg4
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tigerhonaker (01-09-2021)
#85
I just had my first night drive with the standard lights and I agree that they work really well—no visibility issues at all.
I'm not sure why Halogen is even mentioned in this thread as it's not even an option for our cars.
One peculiar thing that I noticed is the cost of upgrade. Not that it really matters but, has anyone noticed that the upgrade costs for what I assume are the same headlights is different across the range:
Cayman (Base + S)
Standard (Bi-Xenon): included
PDLS (Bi-Xenon w/black housing): $670
PDLS+ (LED): $1,180
Cayman (GTS)
PDLS (Bi-Xenon w/black housing): included as standard
PDLS+ (LED): $1,180
Cayman (GT4)
Standard (Bi-Xenon): included
PDLS (Bi-Xenon w/black housing): $1,500
PDLS+ (LED): $2,140
I wonder if it's a supply chain thing, but it's just interesting to see needing to pay more for the same thing. Unless I'm missing something. It's similar to how the same paint choices would sometimes cost more for a 911 than a 718 even though it's the same paint and covers roughly the same amount of panels.
I'm not sure why Halogen is even mentioned in this thread as it's not even an option for our cars.
One peculiar thing that I noticed is the cost of upgrade. Not that it really matters but, has anyone noticed that the upgrade costs for what I assume are the same headlights is different across the range:
Cayman (Base + S)
Standard (Bi-Xenon): included
PDLS (Bi-Xenon w/black housing): $670
PDLS+ (LED): $1,180
Cayman (GTS)
PDLS (Bi-Xenon w/black housing): included as standard
PDLS+ (LED): $1,180
Cayman (GT4)
Standard (Bi-Xenon): included
PDLS (Bi-Xenon w/black housing): $1,500
PDLS+ (LED): $2,140
I wonder if it's a supply chain thing, but it's just interesting to see needing to pay more for the same thing. Unless I'm missing something. It's similar to how the same paint choices would sometimes cost more for a 911 than a 718 even though it's the same paint and covers roughly the same amount of panels.
#86
Rennlist Member
On the Cayman GTS, PDLS+ is included in the $3,600 Premium Package. That seems to be a very common package.
Porsche charges what they can for options, so I'm not surprised that the same lighting option is $1,000 more on a GT4 than on a regular Cayman.
Porsche charges what they can for options, so I'm not surprised that the same lighting option is $1,000 more on a GT4 than on a regular Cayman.
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X2Board (03-08-2022)
#87
Little night drive (sanity drive from the family), with LED and PDSL+. Some different lighting conditions shot with a Hero4 on the luggage bar.
Yes, it was below freezing, yes I have snows mounted.
Hope the video helps someone on the fence. Be great to see something similar from someone with Halogens.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/cVrk4vbYAg4
Yes, it was below freezing, yes I have snows mounted.
Hope the video helps someone on the fence. Be great to see something similar from someone with Halogens.
Cheers.
https://youtu.be/cVrk4vbYAg4
#88
LED is much preferred for functionality but the bi-xenon with a black housing is definitely a prettier and more natural looking headlight. The four DLR LED's positioned the edge of the headlight are distracting. They have too much chrome on them.
#89
TLDL: it's probably a non issue unless you plan to keep the car forever or you are on a super tight budget (probably aren't buying LEDs on a Porsche then anyway).
Unfortunately no. Insurance tracks and shares data on a lot of stuff but I don't see manufacturer or model specific stats that detailed, and only Porsche would track that specific metric. I know rough numbers on my shop's stats though (we fix about 2000 cars a year, average age of vehicle is 4.3 years old, average repairable insurance claim as of last month was about $4300 dollars, so I have a large enough pool of data for what our shop sees for failure rates to get a picture)
What I usually see (collision side of things, collision shops take on the warranty for anything to do with the accident after) the failure rate of a housing is likely to happen very quickly if it's going to fail. Most of the times it's going to be within a month or 2 of it being replaced, and more commonly right out of the box from the manufacturer. I rarely see anything fail after that time period, and if I do it's almost always a tail light.
IMO that's good news, as that tells me if there are problems with quality control they become apparent very early while it still has a warranty. It might even be better still as my theory is all manufacturers dump their rejected assembly line parts on the replacement part market. The stats are probably no worse than 1/50 that fail in that 2 month period, which sounds bad but is actually pretty good because most are DOA. If it makes it past 2 months I'd ballpark the failure rate is around 1/200-1/400 in the next couple years (and remember most of these are LED tail lights for what I see fail in this period). The downside is the tech is still too new to know what the failure rate will be going far into the future when cars are 10-20+ years old. The other downside is in Canada the collision warranty is only active as long as the customer owns the vehicle and most people do not keep their car very long so after a few years I couldn't guess accurately what happens. So there potentially is a good number of vehicles that have had failures years after replacement but I never hear of because they're in the hands of new owners. However, I'd say this is probably a non-issue (if almost nothing fails in 1-3 years it probably isn't going to fail in 4 or 6 or 8 years from a defect).
From a pure dollar perspective the only thing that would keep me from getting LEDs is if I planned to keep the vehicle forever, just because odds are good they will fail someday and if you're dealing with a guaranteed failure it's better to spend 200-400 for some HIDs at most a couple times over 20 years vs $5000 for a housing that now doesn't match the other side of the vehicle and makes it look like your car has an accident history. If I planned to keep it <10 years I personally think the risk of failure outside of warranty in that time period is so minor I wouldn't even factor it in. If someone is on a tight budget and can't absorb a random 5g hit though, prob best to skip them and get HIDs.
Unfortunately no. Insurance tracks and shares data on a lot of stuff but I don't see manufacturer or model specific stats that detailed, and only Porsche would track that specific metric. I know rough numbers on my shop's stats though (we fix about 2000 cars a year, average age of vehicle is 4.3 years old, average repairable insurance claim as of last month was about $4300 dollars, so I have a large enough pool of data for what our shop sees for failure rates to get a picture)
What I usually see (collision side of things, collision shops take on the warranty for anything to do with the accident after) the failure rate of a housing is likely to happen very quickly if it's going to fail. Most of the times it's going to be within a month or 2 of it being replaced, and more commonly right out of the box from the manufacturer. I rarely see anything fail after that time period, and if I do it's almost always a tail light.
IMO that's good news, as that tells me if there are problems with quality control they become apparent very early while it still has a warranty. It might even be better still as my theory is all manufacturers dump their rejected assembly line parts on the replacement part market. The stats are probably no worse than 1/50 that fail in that 2 month period, which sounds bad but is actually pretty good because most are DOA. If it makes it past 2 months I'd ballpark the failure rate is around 1/200-1/400 in the next couple years (and remember most of these are LED tail lights for what I see fail in this period). The downside is the tech is still too new to know what the failure rate will be going far into the future when cars are 10-20+ years old. The other downside is in Canada the collision warranty is only active as long as the customer owns the vehicle and most people do not keep their car very long so after a few years I couldn't guess accurately what happens. So there potentially is a good number of vehicles that have had failures years after replacement but I never hear of because they're in the hands of new owners. However, I'd say this is probably a non-issue (if almost nothing fails in 1-3 years it probably isn't going to fail in 4 or 6 or 8 years from a defect).
From a pure dollar perspective the only thing that would keep me from getting LEDs is if I planned to keep the vehicle forever, just because odds are good they will fail someday and if you're dealing with a guaranteed failure it's better to spend 200-400 for some HIDs at most a couple times over 20 years vs $5000 for a housing that now doesn't match the other side of the vehicle and makes it look like your car has an accident history. If I planned to keep it <10 years I personally think the risk of failure outside of warranty in that time period is so minor I wouldn't even factor it in. If someone is on a tight budget and can't absorb a random 5g hit though, prob best to skip them and get HIDs.
My eyes are not what they used to be so I thought let's get best option. But this thread pushed me over the line and I am crossing it out because:
1. Long-term cost of ownership. The LED headlamps are $2600+ a pop (vs. ~$1200 for PDLS HID). I plan on keeping the car hopefully "forever". It will suck to spend so much money on replacements whatever the reason may be.
2. Complexity (and thus more cost still). The LED lamps apparently are actively cooled by fans. They can be replaced separately and not that expensive (<$200) but that's another point of failure and potential headache. Then there is the auto-dimming camera making windshield replacement more complex/more expensive.
3. Functionality. I do not really care for auto-high beams (have them on my 2021 Land Cruiser), fairly pointless feature.
4. Light output/quality. I have LEDs on a BMW i3 and the 2021 Land Cruiser. They are very impressive on the i3, to a point where they are too bright: sign reflections are simply blinding, and they seem to perform not so well in rain compared to HIDs. They are less aggressive in the Land Cruiser. I have two Land Cruisers in fact (also a 2015), and frankly HID low/HIR high combo on the 2015 is not any worse if not better setup than the all LED on the 2021 I think.
5. Looks. Indeed the look of PDLS HIDs is cleaner than PDLS+ LEDs.
6. Use. I will drive the car at night at times, but not all that much.
I don't think I would settle for regular HIDs, but these are not an option on GTS 4.0. So PDLS it is. And opting out of Premium package is also an opportunity to kill Entry & Drive, which I think I can live without on this car.... $670 grand total saved, lol.
Last edited by unclemat; 03-08-2022 at 08:06 PM.
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Rasputin. (03-08-2022)
#90
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
So PDLS+ LED was an option I've been struggling with for the longest time. I initially was dead set on configuring it for my BGTS 4.0 - especially it is really a bargain as a part of Premium Package. Deleting it and keeping everything else from the package... adds $10 to the cost of the car!
My eyes are not what they used to be so I thought let's get best option. But this thread pushed me over the line and I am crossing it out because:
1. Long-term cost of ownership. The LED headlamps are $2600+ a pop (vs. ~$1200 for PDLS HID). I plan on keeping the car hopefully "forever". It will suck to spend so much money on replacements whatever the reason may be.
2. Complexity (and thus more cost still). The LED lamps apparently are actively cooled by fans. They can be replaced separately and not that expensive (<$200) but that's another point of failure and potential headache. Then there is the auto-dimming camera making windshield replacement more complex/more expensive.
3. Functionality. I do not really care for auto-high beams (have them on my 2021 Land Cruiser), fairly pointless feature.
4. Light output/quality. I have LEDs on a BMW i3 and the 2021 Land Cruiser. They are very impressive on the i3, to a point where they are too bright: sign reflections are simply blinding, and they seem to perform not so well in rain compared to HIDs. They are less aggressive in the Land Cruiser. I have two Land Cruiser in fact (also a 2015), and frankly HID low/HIR high combo on the 2015 is not any worse if not better setup than the all LED on the 2021 I think.
5. Looks. Indeed the look of PDLS HIDs is cleaner than PDLS+ LEDs.
6. Use. I will drive the car at night at times, but not all that much.
I don't think I would settle for regular HIDs, but these are not an option on GTS 4.0. So PDLS it is. And opting out of Premium package is also an opportunity to kill Entry & Drive, which I think I can live without on this car.... $670 grand total saved, lol.
My eyes are not what they used to be so I thought let's get best option. But this thread pushed me over the line and I am crossing it out because:
1. Long-term cost of ownership. The LED headlamps are $2600+ a pop (vs. ~$1200 for PDLS HID). I plan on keeping the car hopefully "forever". It will suck to spend so much money on replacements whatever the reason may be.
2. Complexity (and thus more cost still). The LED lamps apparently are actively cooled by fans. They can be replaced separately and not that expensive (<$200) but that's another point of failure and potential headache. Then there is the auto-dimming camera making windshield replacement more complex/more expensive.
3. Functionality. I do not really care for auto-high beams (have them on my 2021 Land Cruiser), fairly pointless feature.
4. Light output/quality. I have LEDs on a BMW i3 and the 2021 Land Cruiser. They are very impressive on the i3, to a point where they are too bright: sign reflections are simply blinding, and they seem to perform not so well in rain compared to HIDs. They are less aggressive in the Land Cruiser. I have two Land Cruiser in fact (also a 2015), and frankly HID low/HIR high combo on the 2015 is not any worse if not better setup than the all LED on the 2021 I think.
5. Looks. Indeed the look of PDLS HIDs is cleaner than PDLS+ LEDs.
6. Use. I will drive the car at night at times, but not all that much.
I don't think I would settle for regular HIDs, but these are not an option on GTS 4.0. So PDLS it is. And opting out of Premium package is also an opportunity to kill Entry & Drive, which I think I can live without on this car.... $670 grand total saved, lol.
To each their own, I love them in my Spyder and wouldn't hesitate a microsecond to option them in next time, and as for looks, the only ones that look better are the Full-Matrix style on the latest 911's
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Alpha Ice (03-08-2022)