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Is the disk weight diff really 10lb? Do you have a reference for this info? On some other cars I’ve read it’s more like 5lb weight saved per disk.
On brake pedal feel, I’ve read that CC brakes are more grabby, more on/off, and harder to modulate than irons. Is this not the case with PCCB? Quite possible that Porsche excels here as well.
thIs is only the case when the CCs are cold. after they are sufficiently warmed up, their action is becomes more linear and they are easier to modulate.
I prefer the brake pedal feel with irons especially for trail braking but I suppose it’s subjective and what you’re comfortable with.
Originally Posted by wizee
Both the steels and PCCB are more than enough brake for the car on the GT4/Spyder, in terms of stopping power, heat capacity, and heat dissipation. PCCB can dissipate more heat by virtue of higher operating temperatures and more surface area, but the steel GT3 brakes are more than enough. The useful reasons to get PCCB on the GT4/Spyder are:
No brake dust or rust
Saves about 10 lbs/corner unsprung mass, significantly improving tire contact over rough pavement
That petevb's explanation is pretty cool. He is always thorough!
Does Porsche setup the suspension differently between PCCB and standard? With reduced unsprung weight, should the variables such as springs, dampers, etc. be tweaked to take advantage of? By the same vein, when installing lighter wheels, don't we need to recalibrate the settings? Combining PCCB and lighter-than-stock wheels will get more interesting; and, warrant tweaking the suspension to benefit from.
The last post from that GT3 thread says that Porsche states the weight diff to be 16lb or 4lb per corner vs the red iron discs without a reference/link:
Pete Stout’s post mentions that the red calipers are actually lighter. Is there a first hand Porsche reference, document, link about these weights? Or a reference where someone has actually weighed the whole CC and iron corner and reported the weights?
I think the more reasonable question is...why is Porsche charging $900 to paint the calipers black?! That should be a no-cost option. And I'm sure it will be down the road.
Porsche charges for it because people will pay for it.
Just like people paying Porsche more for black door handles. If you buy a Honda, you get a black handle in lower trim levels. Body colour matching handles in upper trims. This makes sense to me because I expect it simplifies manufacturing if all handles are black, thus cheaper. You pay Porsche for colour belts if you don’t like standard black ones.
Is there a first hand Porsche reference, document, link about these weights? Or a reference where someone has actually weighed the whole CC and iron corner and reported the weights?
Well, it isn't exactly a first hand Porsche reference, but in one of his videos discussing specing his 718 Spyder, Janko Lind mentions that the PCCBs save, in total, 17.3 kilos, or about 38 lbs. Watch beginning at about 5 min.
It's actually a pretty funny segment. He discusses how the weight saving is different for different Porsche cars. The two things I like about them are how they make the car look and feel. These are both subjective so others may, of course, have the opposite opinion.
That petevb's explanation is pretty cool. He is always thorough!
Does Porsche setup the suspension differently between PCCB and standard? With reduced unsprung weight, should the variables such as springs, dampers, etc. be tweaked to take advantage of? By the same vein, when installing lighter wheels, don't we need to recalibrate the settings? Combining PCCB and lighter-than-stock wheels will get more interesting; and, warrant tweaking the suspension to benefit from.
Yes and interesting view point but I think that the discussion about shaving the tire is a bit out of context, he applies the savings to the iron rotor package, but this could also be applied to the PCCB rotor package as well which keeps the iron rotors from ever reaching the same weight savings as the PCCB afford.
Simply stated the PCCB's will always be slightly lighter than the iron equivalent and as the tires wear the reduction in the MOI will only serve to heighten the feel of the PCCB setup. And as we (me) are talking about a street setup then I am not about to shave off tread $$$ to achieve the weight savings he talks about, Cup 2 tires are already expensive enough!
As for the lighter wheels, once I have them installed I will report back.
I’m not quite sure how or why this thread became my brakes are better than your brakes. As I mentioned, I dig the PCCBs, if I wasn’t paranoid about gravel or some ham-fisted tire changer, I’d have PCCBs on my car right now. That said, these irons have a terrific bite and great feel and I’m absolutely smitten with my 718 Spyder. Which was the point I ended with in my original post. Anyway you slice it, these are marvelous cars from the refined “GT3” suspension to the new free revving effortlessly linear 4.0 Liter engine.
Btw, I’ve never had iron rotors fail on me but should they wear out, maybe I’d go this route. They seem to address some of my misgivings about PCCBs and I don’t have to pay a huge Porsche tax for “exclusive manufakture” big red calipers with my ceramic rotors.
Happy and safe 4th everyone! PCCB or Iron, It’s great to live in an nation where we can express or opinions, enjoy the fruits of our labor and pursue our happiness.
Originally Posted by AutoquestMotorsports
Carbon ceramic brakes have always been a love-hate relationship in the track day community. They offer many benefits over cast iron brakes with the only real drawback being the replacement costs, even though they typically last significantly longer than cast iron rotors. The end result is track enthusiasts pursuing cast iron brake rotor conversions or spec’ing their cars with cast iron rotors, in the process giving up both braking performance and handling. As the Exclusive North American Distributor for ST Carbon Ceramic Rotors, we offer an alternative solution through ST’s innovative technology, where you can get all the benefits listed below of the ST carbon ceramic rotors and at a much more cost-effective price point
• REFURBISHABLE multiple times with an average expected lifespan of *12-15k track miles* with refurbishments
• Available for both PCCB (Yellow) and Cast Iron (Red) Caliper equipped vehicles without the need for replacing the calipers
• Better braking performance over PCCB’s and cast iron rotors
• Significant improvement in brake modulation over PCCB’s – better trailbraking
• Option to run a much more aggressive pad for track applications versus PCCB’s
• Approximately 50% less expensive than PCCB rotor replacements
• Average expected life between refurbishments of 4 to 5 thousand track miles
• Refurbishment of a complete ST rotor set costs less than the equivalent cast iron rotor replacements
• Significant reduction in brake pad wear compared to the PCCB rotors, and most cast iron rotors
• Operating temperatures approximately 200 degrees lower than PCCBs
• 50% less unsprung weight compared to the equivalent GT3/GT4 cast iron brake rotors
• Minimal brake dust compared to cast iron rotors for street use
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I would buy PCCB's for the less brake dust as well as not having rust on your rotors after a wash. Other than that I would save the $9k and go with steels. If I was optioning a car new and wanted to keep it long term, I would probably go with PCCB's and make sure I have a set of steel rotors available in case I ever chipped them.
The last post from that GT3 thread says that Porsche states the weight diff to be 16lb or 4lb per corner vs the red iron discs without a reference/link:
Pete Stout’s post mentions that the red calipers are actually lighter. Is there a first hand Porsche reference, document, link about these weights? Or a reference where someone has actually weighed the whole CC and iron corner and reported the weights?
Sorry, but which post?
I'm curious because PCCB vs standard brake weight differences has always been a tricky business—and vary model to model. The original number from the 996 era (44~ lbs iirc) gets thrown around a lot, but that was for that era only. In the 987, the "big red" standard brakes were quite a bit smaller than the PCCB. Ditto for, say, a 997.1 Carrera upgraded to PCCB. And nowhere is that more true, at least when it comes to size disparity, than the 991.2 Carrera optioned with PCCB vs the standard brake system. Motorsport cars are probably closer to the disparity seen in the 996 era, as they get true big reds, and there appears to be good info in the thread above putting the change at 38-40~ lbs.
Back in the 996 era, I asked Walter Röhrl if he could tell the handling differences between the two cars. Always a straight shooter in my experience, he thought for a moment, then said no. I'm not sure I have ever been able to detect a difference in the way a particular Porsche steers or handles with and without PCCB, but I am not sure I've ever had that perfect circumstance in which to try and detect it. But skipping PCCB was my biggest regret in my GT4. So long as the car is a street-primary car, I view PCCB as a must despite the downsides and risks. (This is a personal view, however—definitely not saying it's right for everyone else.) The price of PCCB quickly looks like a bargain against any high-quality aftermarket four-wheel upgrade…even if you convert back to iron rotors and especially if you sell the PCCB rotors after doing so. And the calipers/MC/lines/etc remain covered by the factory warranty, which I imagine goes out the window with aftermarket rotors and calipers.
The part which I understood says that iron calipers and pads are lighter was the bolded part below. Maybe I didn't understand it correctly:
"Thus looking at the front, worn iron rotors and pads with a shaved tire will cut the absolute weight difference to PCCBs to zero (4 lbs of shaved rubber, 2.5 lbs of lost rotor mass, 1.5 lbs for worn pads, while the calipers and pads were 1 lb lighter to begin with = 9 lbs, where the stock PCCB rotor is ~9 lbs lighter to begin with)."
Gatch, Can I ask why you are parroting what has been previously posted by other forum members . (See example below) This site makes it very easy to multi-quote and properly acknowledge the persons who actually wrote what you are reposting
Yeah that’s a rookie move on my part. I didn’t know we could quote from separate threads. But that’s also why I said “I’ll add the applicable information here” before including information from several posts. It was an aggregation from that thread based on what was being discussed with weight, etc.
I am also guilty of referencing Pete. I believe a key point both of us made is that the benefits of PCCB's are "in the eye of the beholder." We can all certainly disagree in good faith about their benefits...this is a 1st World problem! Wishing us all a blessed Declaration Day.
Well, it isn't exactly a first hand Porsche reference, but in one of his videos discussing specing his 718 Spyder, Janko Lind mentions that the PCCBs save, in total, 17.3 kilos, or about 38 lbs. Watch beginning at about 5 min. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0i8w51c62c It's actually a pretty funny segment. He discusses how the weight saving is different for different Porsche cars. The two things I like about them are how they make the car look and feel. These are both subjective so others may, of course, have the opposite opinion.
God bless,
TT
OK, that settles it then. That IS a lot of weight saved. I'm guessing that diff (weight loss) is much smaller for the GTS 4.0 since it doesn't sport the big reds of the GT4/Spyder.
I think my biggest issue with PCCB now would be the 200 yard gravel/dirt road that connects my house to asphalt. I would guess it drastically increases the risk of either caliper & wheel barrel scoring or, much worse, a rotor scoring from an unlucky pebble/rock that lodges itself in there. Then I saw Janko on the video has a similar gravel/dirt road too. Did he end up choosing the PCCB?
07-04-2020, 02:52 AM
Did he end up choosing the PCCB?