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I do think the new RS speed wise will be the same or faster than a Clubsport right out of the box. But, obviously lacking the safety of the Clubsport's robust containment cage.
Having poked around on one in person, this seems unlikely to me. There's a LOT of carbon fibre on the CS. The doors feel like they're made of helium. I just don't see a street car matching that level of track performance with a full interior and everything else they come with.
I think the problem might be it won’t be as good as a GT4CS, even the entry level trackday version, but probably won’t be too far off in price.
So then what are you really getting?
Originally Posted by Wild Weasel
Well for one thing... you're getting something you can drive to the track. Or anywhere else.
Originally Posted by GrantG
Exactly - and you get a warranty and the opportunity for Euro Delivery and you can avoid buying a truck, trailer, and extra garage...
This is true...
Originally Posted by ExMB
You have no clue regarding pricing of the GT4CS, do you?
Haha, And you have no clue have of how involved i am with Porsche Motorsport and the Sprint Challenge Series.
My point about a CS was that they may probably be more readily available for Porsche than a GT4 RS will be.... whether 981 or 718.
And then when you start to factor in the potential purchase price of a GT4 RS,... the fact that it will still be slower than a 991/992GT3.
People will be scared about residuals to really track a GT4 RS hard. Then there are the running costs.
Of course the point about being able to just drive to the track, do laps and then drive home in the same car is a valid one.
I was suggesting it as an alternative because the CS running costs will be higher but the overall proportion may end up in the same order of magnitude, considering you aren't going to take a crazy hit on value when you come to move on from the CS, like you might do on a moderately used RS.... if you are really serious about track days and do a lot of days.
In Europe, there is a decent shift of people ditching road GT cars for race cars (Cup car, CS etc) to do track days. They're safer, faster and more fun and if you are doing a lot of days, running a road GT car becomes very expensive also and you start to find the limits of the car and end up wanting to mod.. Suspension, trying to get to slicks etc, etc.
It depends on how serious you are/ how much you are going to run the car on track.
This is true...Haha, And you have no clue have of how involved i am with Porsche Motorsport and the Sprint Challenge Series.
My point about a CS was that they may probably be more readily available for Porsche than a GT4 RS will be.... whether 981 or 718.
And then when you start to factor in the potential purchase price of a GT4 RS,... the fact that it will still be slower than a 991/992GT3.
People will be scared about residuals to really track a GT4 RS hard. Then there are the running costs.
Of course the point about being able to just drive to the track, do laps and then drive home in the same car is a valid one.
I was suggesting it as an alternative because the CS running costs will be higher but the overall proportion may end up in the same order of magnitude, considering you aren't going to take a crazy hit on value when you come to move on from the CS, like you might do on a moderately used RS.... if you are really serious about track days and do a lot of days.
In Europe, there is a decent shift of people ditching road GT cars for race cars (Cup car, CS etc) to do track days. They're safer, faster and more fun and if you are doing a lot of days, running a road GT car becomes very expensive also and you start to find the limits of the car and end up wanting to mod.. Suspension, trying to get to slicks etc, etc.
It depends on how serious you are/ how much you are going to run the car on track.
You make excellent points, rare talent.. can we be friends?
But seriously, I've driven both 981 and 718 Gt4 CS and especially the latter with more power is the most fun I've had on track. I say this including experiences driving most of the worlds hypercars and all kinds of crazy powerful silliness on road tires.
To me, Driving a lightweight car on slicks is a different world from even more powerful road cars. The CS corners so hard and can attack curbs at very different lines vs. a GT3 RS even...
And safety is a huge concern which most people don't consider. When I think how fast we go in a road car with just a partial cage (or sometimes nothing), no HANS, no fire extinguishing system.. I shudder a bit. I was just in a 16-hr race at Sonoma on same team as Randy Pobst (humble brag) and we railed hard on a Honda Civic for repeat sessions, with full abandon only focusing on driving lines, but no sense of fear of an accident knowing that between the full race seat, full cage, full fire system, not to mention full fireproof underwear, suit, balaclava and gloves.. that I was relatively safe.
Thinking about driving that hard in a GT car like the GT4rs is a completely insane idea.. and yet that car is way faster than the car we drove.
Your post makes me go back again to thinking about what I actually want... some of my contrasting considerations below:
-I don't have extra space for a separate track car.
-I love the new car speccing and European delivery process and can't wait for GT4rs.
-I would like to drive GT4rs to the track and back home, and have something for the occasionally street drive on weekends.
-using gt4rs on track as it's intended is both very dangerous, and high probability of massive value loss or write-off.
-I will reach limits of the car on road tires and will want to add slicks or go racing with it as I get bored of track days before my self-preservation instinct tells me to slow down.
Faaaak.. I'm totally conflicted.
Just for kicks Here are some of our team pics from our race with the king of Laguna Seca himself.
Also just because pics are fun and we are talking about track cars.. here is one of the one which is coming to my Hypercar invitational event this year.. true unobtanium material.. luckily the owner is absolutely up to the challenge of hauling this beast around
But seriously, I've driven both 981 and 718 Gt4 CS and especially the latter with more power is the most fun I've had on track. I say this including experiences driving most of the worlds hypercars and all kinds of crazy powerful silliness on road tires.
To me, Driving a lightweight car on slicks is a different world from even more powerful road cars. The CS corners so hard and can attack curbs at very different lines vs. a GT3 RS even...
I've driven the CS cars as well, in fact we're aiming to enter the European GT4 championship's first round in Italy in April with my friend's 718 MR, but I have come back a little from this kind of thinking which had led me to turn my 981 GTS PDK into a home built GT4 CS of sorts (performance wise it's about equal with a well modded CS)
Yes, slicks are amazing. But they're well over 2 grand for a new set and you easily go through one of those in a day of proper driving. I barely got through 15 mins of quali followed by two 30 minute races on a single set of Michelin N1. It's like a coke addiction except significantly more expensive. You also end up with at least two but better 3 or more sets of wheels to drag around. One set with old slicks for transport and when you don't want to use the good stuff, one set to put new stickers on and yet another set for wets in case it rains. Needing trailers or separate transport means a bit more planning (and yet more money) but it does have some benefits as well I suppose.
I spent the past two years making the car faster and faster until it takes a very well sorted CS to keep up, but I find myself with very few opportunities to actually drive the car. Putting slicks on also means your suspension parts get an absolute ***kicking and need to be replaced regularly. Porsche race cars scrap the lower control arms every 20-30 hours for example. I snapped one in half on track luckily at low speed and only cracked my new carbon fender. A few corners later and that side of the car would have been fully loaded up through a flat 120 mph corner.... different story then. Yes the cage makes things a lot safer but you're increasing the risk of something happening as well either from mechanical or other causes. If you're on track with other non-race cars the speed difference creates issues as well.
So now I bought a 718 GT4 (still have the race car as well for now, but its days are probably numbered) to go back to square one. Have an exciting car I can hop into and enjoy on the road or just drive it to the track with little or no notice and no team required. Just grab a tire pressure gauge on your way out. Sure it's not quite as visceral as the stripped out race car but it's less compromised and the set-up isn't nearly as critical. With race cars you're always fiddling with the alignment, the shocks, the sway bars... to make whatever state your tires are in work for a few moments until you start complaining again that it's not quite as brilliantly balanced as one's (imagined) Senna-like driving skills demand.
So I've come full circle, curious to see if I'll be making another lap after this.
So I've come full circle, curious to see if I'll be making another lap after this.
Lol. Yes you can get into a bit cycle.… on the race car the work load as from just driving get so high you wish you were just in a road GT car with pretty much nothing required.… no hassle, apart from tyre pressures.
But after a while in the road GT car, you’ll wish for more grip of slicks, ability to adjust suspension fully etc etc
In reality you ‘NEED’ both a race car and GT road car. Lol.
I am fully in agreement, that the pricing for GT4RS will push GT4RS to a territory of 991.2 GT3. And I have a feeling that GT3 will still be faster both on a racetrack and on a straight line.
It is quite questionable which one to pick for the same price:
- preowned GT3 but with low milage in a perfect condition and with a glorious engine
or
- a new GT4RS, a nice midengine car but with less power and a slower car in general
...
So I've come full circle, curious to see if I'll be making another lap after this.
Your entire post has made me quite depressed. I thought I had reached some level of semi-enlightened state... where I had figured out the best solution quickly what takes others years to realize. But then you tell us that you're back to square one and I'm feeling pretty lost in this wilderness of indecision now.
I guess I'll just take delivery of the GT4rs, park it in my garage indefinitely and live in this purgatory forever.
My friend and I regularly talk about this GT vs CS dilemma. No absolute answer here. Each one of us has to travel our own journey. Thankfully, with some wisdom and guidance shared by our fellow forum members. Thanks for the thoughts guys.
In his heyday my friend was an Indy Car test driver for Andretti Racing among others. Now more recently getting into Porsches again, he worked his way back up through a decked out GT3, 997.1 race car, and then a 991 Cup Car. He won at each level, including the HPDE.....LOL. Now he is trying out Spec-Boxster racing, who would have thought that. He frequently mentions the Grojean F1 crash/fire and has been trying to get more people focused on safety while at the track.
For me right now, the convenience of driving a slightly modified GT car to the track and back home with minimal drama is very appealing. Plan on sticking with good quality Comp-R tires and driving within the abilities of the vehicle, and hoping I don't get the urge for too much more. Have avoided Hoosiers in the past, cause I know they are hard on the cars suspension parts, and known as purple crack for a reason.
Last edited by lovetoturn; 02-25-2021 at 11:05 PM.
Interesting discussion. I only use my 991.2 GT3 for track because I don't enjoy it as much on street having tracked it for last 2 years. I am concerned about safety, having a young family. Thinking is if I only use it for track, why not get a proper track car. Do I mod a Cayman? Get a spec Miata? I want to drive Porsche. I contacted PMNA about the CS, it's GT3RS money. Challenge is requiring a tow vehicle and trailer. I have a 19 Cayenne, haven't checked out how competent that can be at towing it in say a 24-26' trailer. Having to buy a pickup and a trailer is another $120k on top of the CS. Then storage of those two things. Then If I get the CS, do I have to stick with it for 3-5 years to get the value before taking a loss. Tough choices when one has a budget.
one option which no one discusses, but which has worked really well for me this year, is renting track cars. This has worked for me under the following considerations:
-i spend about $2500-$3000 for an arrive and drive track day in a top notch car.. most recently a fully-prepped M4 GTS with AP Racing brake upgrade, light wheels, full race seat and harness, and track spec tires. i do this about every 2 months.. although in total only about 5 times/year. Yes i've spent about $15k all in, BUT...
-i don't think about anything except arriving, driving a perfectly set up car with a team which checks tire pressures, offers timing equipment and video of my day.
-i have zero other costs, zero commitments, zero transportation concerns, no other track costs, and aside from the insurance deductible, zero financial or depreciation risk.
-the group i rent from also has cup cars and other options include a 570s GT4, so if i want to upgrade or downgrade and the car is available i can do so.
-when i want to go racing for a few months instead of HPDE, i don't have to worry about a car just sitting there unused.
-and when i'm done with the day... they send me pretty pics from the experience and i go have dinner without worrying about getting the car back home, changing tires, maintenance or anything.
I have found this solution to have worked well for me during an interim period when i didn't have a good track car.. and as recently i've gravitated more towards racing than HPDE, this has been the best possible solution for me. Now i realize there aren't necessarily track car rental companies everywhere like we have in California, but when you consider ALL the costs of track car ownership... this is a great option if you want an easy arrive and drive experience without having to think about anything else ever. I would plug the company i use here because they have been amazing to work with, but that's not the point of this post.
Still.. i'm excited about GT4RS.. against my best judgement.
one option which no one discusses, but which has worked really well for me this year, is renting track cars. This has worked for me under the following considerations:
-i spend about $2500-$3000 for an arrive and drive track day in a top notch car.. most recently a fully-prepped M4 GTS with AP Racing brake upgrade, light wheels, full race seat and harness, and track spec tires. i do this about every 2 months.. although in total only about 5 times/year. Yes i've spent about $15k all in, BUT...
-i don't think about anything except arriving, driving a perfectly set up car with a team which checks tire pressures, offers timing equipment and video of my day.
-i have zero other costs, zero commitments, zero transportation concerns, no other track costs, and aside from the insurance deductible, zero financial or depreciation risk.
-the group i rent from also has cup cars and other options include a 570s GT4, so if i want to upgrade or downgrade and the car is available i can do so.
-when i want to go racing for a few months instead of HPDE, i don't have to worry about a car just sitting there unused.
-and when i'm done with the day... they send me pretty pics from the experience and i go have dinner without worrying about getting the car back home, changing tires, maintenance or anything.
I have found this solution to have worked well for me during an interim period when i didn't have a good track car.. and as recently i've gravitated more towards racing than HPDE, this has been the best possible solution for me. Now i realize there aren't necessarily track car rental companies everywhere like we have in California, but when you consider ALL the costs of track car ownership... this is a great option if you want an easy arrive and drive experience without having to think about anything else ever. I would plug the company i use here because they have been amazing to work with, but that's not the point of this post.
Still.. i'm excited about GT4RS.. against my best judgement.
This is something I have considered and is very appealing....also have been toying with the idea of a Radical.
My wife tells me all the time to sell my cars and just rent a race car whenever I want to.... my head tells me she is right... but my ego won’t let me not have a track tool at home. Yet.
Tyrone, what will you buy/play with instead? I figure you need at least one fun car to keep your modding habit fuelled. Otherwise what else, mistress, scale model railway? Could be a disaster for her.
one option which no one discusses, but which has worked really well for me this year, is renting track cars. This has worked for me under the following considerations:
-i spend about $2500-$3000 for an arrive and drive track day in a top notch car.. most recently a fully-prepped M4 GTS with AP Racing brake upgrade, light wheels, full race seat and harness, and track spec tires. i do this about every 2 months.. although in total only about 5 times/year. Yes i've spent about $15k all in, BUT...
-i don't think about anything except arriving, driving a perfectly set up car with a team which checks tire pressures, offers timing equipment and video of my day.
-i have zero other costs, zero commitments, zero transportation concerns, no other track costs, and aside from the insurance deductible, zero financial or depreciation risk.
-the group i rent from also has cup cars and other options include a 570s GT4, so if i want to upgrade or downgrade and the car is available i can do so.
-when i want to go racing for a few months instead of HPDE, i don't have to worry about a car just sitting there unused.
-and when i'm done with the day... they send me pretty pics from the experience and i go have dinner without worrying about getting the car back home, changing tires, maintenance or anything.
I have found this solution to have worked well for me during an interim period when i didn't have a good track car.. and as recently i've gravitated more towards racing than HPDE, this has been the best possible solution for me. Now i realize there aren't necessarily track car rental companies everywhere like we have in California, but when you consider ALL the costs of track car ownership... this is a great option if you want an easy arrive and drive experience without having to think about anything else ever. I would plug the company i use here because they have been amazing to work with, but that's not the point of this post.
Still.. i'm excited about GT4RS.. against my best judgement.
Absolutely in agreement.
You never buy a race car unless you race at least full season in Porsche Sports Cup (6-7 races*) + you do a lot of test days in addition and you are quite confident you proceed the same way several years in a row. Otherwise financially it doesn’t make any sense.
P.S. Once you try a proper racing car, take a pro driver as a coach, spend some time and later make a good progress you just stop abusing your road legal GT4/GT3/GT3RS on a race track. You will end up bringing your road car to racetrack just for fun for the sake of socializing.
P.P.S: making a good progress with a racing car and becoming a faster driver is very dangerous for your wallet. You will end up spending A LOT MORE than you originally thought you were prepared to. Racing cars are extremely addictive if you learn how to be a faster driver.
Last edited by kart driver; 02-26-2021 at 08:09 AM.
02-25-2021, 10:55 AM
