Thinkin' about buying my first 356...
12-21-2003, 12:27 PM
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Thinkin' about buying my first 356...
I have always admired the 356, somewhat in the way I remember a crush I had on my grade school teacher. I have never owned one. I have never even driven one. I do believe I know what to expect.
Recently I've done lots of research and looked at just about every 356 on the internet. There are a few that really grab me but one in particular...
Click here to see it.
This car has the same romantic visual appeal to me as my 993, only kinda like at the "granddaddy" level. And although price is not really the issue, I really like the fact that it's not a $50K+ car.
Questions... When you 356 owners bought your first one, did you just hold your breath and jump in the pool? Can these cars be bought via photographs and dealer reputations or do all the cautions of modern car buying still apply? Are all 356 owners DIYers? What would be different about the coupe above that would make it $40K? 50k? Are the later cars less expensive 'cause they were produced in greater numbers? Any opinions on the "knee of the curve" re: 356 ownership? If I own this car for 5 years and take perfect care of it, how easy are they to sell and at what ROI?
I would want a car to drive, albeit on nice days only and for the most part locally. You know, just a grin machine, a feelin' young machine. No concours, no garage queen, but must be a beautiful example of a 356.
I'd welcome any answers/advice experienced tub drivers might have. Sorry I seem to need help on all fronts, but that 356 has me spinnin'.
Thanks for reading the ramble - I better go shoot up some 993 adrenaline.
Recently I've done lots of research and looked at just about every 356 on the internet. There are a few that really grab me but one in particular...
Click here to see it.
This car has the same romantic visual appeal to me as my 993, only kinda like at the "granddaddy" level. And although price is not really the issue, I really like the fact that it's not a $50K+ car.
Questions... When you 356 owners bought your first one, did you just hold your breath and jump in the pool? Can these cars be bought via photographs and dealer reputations or do all the cautions of modern car buying still apply? Are all 356 owners DIYers? What would be different about the coupe above that would make it $40K? 50k? Are the later cars less expensive 'cause they were produced in greater numbers? Any opinions on the "knee of the curve" re: 356 ownership? If I own this car for 5 years and take perfect care of it, how easy are they to sell and at what ROI?
I would want a car to drive, albeit on nice days only and for the most part locally. You know, just a grin machine, a feelin' young machine. No concours, no garage queen, but must be a beautiful example of a 356.
I'd welcome any answers/advice experienced tub drivers might have. Sorry I seem to need help on all fronts, but that 356 has me spinnin'.
Thanks for reading the ramble - I better go shoot up some 993 adrenaline.
12-22-2003, 03:44 PM
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Hi,
I recently bought a 356 under much the same circumstances - always wanted one, never drove one before. here are some impressions and advice:
If you are not buying from a Porsche fanatic, like I did, who had all of teh records, a CD of the engine and transmission rebuild, a bunch of spare parts, the original manual and the the factory authorized repair manual and most importantly a RELUCTANCE to sell the car, then do the following:
If you cannot see the car in person then have it inspected..thoroughly - not by any inspector either. Have an older mehanic look at it. the younger porsche mechanics will not have the same amount of experience.
have a body shop look at it for:
rust, bondo, and gaps, straightness etc. these cars were hand made and each one has its own imperfections.
have the suspension checked out - all the nipples should be ozzing with grease.
check the cables and hoses - there are not that many and each one should be tight and clean.
look for all teh usual oil leaks - crankcase, valve covers, oil pan - there may be evidence of some seepage which is normal, but there should be no active dripping.
look at the rubber boots around the transaxle - should be tight and clean.
electrics - everything should be functioning - there is no reason for any of the ..few..components not to be working.
chrome should be in good shape, expect some pitting and need for rechroming, especially around teh bumpers and wheels.
don't fall into the trap of thinking that if teh emchanicals are fine, it will be cheap to do teh paint and body - this car has $$$ written all over it when you pull into a paint shop - expect to spend at least 5 to 10k for a good paint/body job.
It will cost close to 10K to do a complete teardown and rebuild of the engine and transaxle as well
DIY - it is not as difficult to do many of teh maintenance items. changing the belt is not hard, changing the oil is easy, greasing the suspension is ok, the electrics are fairly simple, but you need some backround for teh more complicated stuff.
all of the components are easy to reach - unlike the crowded compartements of new 911s, this one is quite an open spacious place.
there are no computers - thank god.
if there are no books or records - stay away!
good luck
I recently bought a 356 under much the same circumstances - always wanted one, never drove one before. here are some impressions and advice:
If you are not buying from a Porsche fanatic, like I did, who had all of teh records, a CD of the engine and transmission rebuild, a bunch of spare parts, the original manual and the the factory authorized repair manual and most importantly a RELUCTANCE to sell the car, then do the following:
If you cannot see the car in person then have it inspected..thoroughly - not by any inspector either. Have an older mehanic look at it. the younger porsche mechanics will not have the same amount of experience.
have a body shop look at it for:
rust, bondo, and gaps, straightness etc. these cars were hand made and each one has its own imperfections.
have the suspension checked out - all the nipples should be ozzing with grease.
check the cables and hoses - there are not that many and each one should be tight and clean.
look for all teh usual oil leaks - crankcase, valve covers, oil pan - there may be evidence of some seepage which is normal, but there should be no active dripping.
look at the rubber boots around the transaxle - should be tight and clean.
electrics - everything should be functioning - there is no reason for any of the ..few..components not to be working.
chrome should be in good shape, expect some pitting and need for rechroming, especially around teh bumpers and wheels.
don't fall into the trap of thinking that if teh emchanicals are fine, it will be cheap to do teh paint and body - this car has $$$ written all over it when you pull into a paint shop - expect to spend at least 5 to 10k for a good paint/body job.
It will cost close to 10K to do a complete teardown and rebuild of the engine and transaxle as well
DIY - it is not as difficult to do many of teh maintenance items. changing the belt is not hard, changing the oil is easy, greasing the suspension is ok, the electrics are fairly simple, but you need some backround for teh more complicated stuff.
all of the components are easy to reach - unlike the crowded compartements of new 911s, this one is quite an open spacious place.
there are no computers - thank god.
if there are no books or records - stay away!
good luck
12-22-2003, 04:29 PM
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what he said.. i have never had a 356, so i cannot give 1st hand experience, but i have a 912, which is like a younger sibling to the 356.. same engine, same body concerns as pre galvanised, and rarity of some parts.
dont just buy somthing sight unseen. if you cant see it yourself in person, have someone do it for you. and like he said.. get someone who knows 356's like they know the back of their hand. you dont just jump in.. if you do, you might as well shoot your own head off. do research, find out which tub is for you, and know what to look for, what is desireable, what isnt, and think about your reasons for owning said tub. if you want a concourse prefect car.. research your *** off. if you want a driver, make sure you know what to look for and aslo find what you want in a 356 driver.
are you looking to get one to sell and make a profit on? if so.. you need to search which 356 models are becoming more valuable. for instance, look at the price of a speedster 5 years ago.. and look at what they are going for this year (this year happens to be the anniv. of the speedster.. high in demand.. if you know how to invest in any market, you always look to the future, whats comming up and what will be hitting heavily in popularity in the near fuiture).
diy work is easy. if youve done anything to a vw beetle.. its basically the same concept. but if you want to really get deep into engine repairs.. forget everything you ever learned about a vw.. as they get much more complicated when you get deep into the heart of the beast. (notice i didnt say tougher.. same basic concept/compnets in a way, just everything is much more precise, balanced, and sophisticated i guess). but changing oil, checking valves, changing v-belt, etc.. carbs are a bit more difficult to balance too.
no matter what your purpose is the name of the game is engine and body (rust and paint). rust is cancer, and it kills. you have to figure to strip repair and repaint a car completey will be about 5-15k depending on how bad the body is before you paint. an good, proper engine will be about 7-9k and up.. depending on how far you wanna go with it. even more depending on which year and scarcity of the parts. now you can get 'rebuilt' engines for 2-3k.. but you dont know who built them, the quality of the parts, or the quality of the build. you do not want some vw mechanic building you a 356 engine. the maestro (Harry Pellow.. someone you should learn, study and know all of his works if youre getting into 356s), would call these engines 'turkeys'.
now if you want to get into somthing thats pristine, and concourse (or more original if not a show car) you take the body and engine concept.. and you add on originality etc..
basically.. it is best to buy the absolute best condition early porsche you can buy.. its simple economics. since i know the 912 best as far as values go, i will use it as an example. why buy a 3,000 912, thats got a rotten body and worse engine, and spend 8k on a motor (freshening up carbs and everything else as needed while at it), 10k on body and paint, 2k in rechroming, 2k in reappolstering, 600 in wheels 400 in tires (assumung the wheels that came on the beast are rough). there you spent at least 26k, trying to restore a 912 into perfect condition (and this is a low estimate), which will only be worth 10k if your lucky when your done (and everything complete and perfect), where as you could have spent 20k on an all original concorse condition example, thats really worth 20k, and will gain more in value than the previous example. this concept applies to all porsches really.. its just with some models, that you are talking bigger numbers -especially the 356, due to its desireability, rarity of parts, etc. '
here are some links for you
www.356registry.org
www.hcpresearch.com
(hcp research was the home page of the late great harry pellow.. although he is no longer living and his shop close, you should read his articles, and find his books.. they are the holy grail for all 356 engines, repairs, maintenence etc. his write ups and articles on his web site are very informative, amusing, and funny! and they will teach you a few things about what kind of things to keep in mind mechanically)
dont just buy somthing sight unseen. if you cant see it yourself in person, have someone do it for you. and like he said.. get someone who knows 356's like they know the back of their hand. you dont just jump in.. if you do, you might as well shoot your own head off. do research, find out which tub is for you, and know what to look for, what is desireable, what isnt, and think about your reasons for owning said tub. if you want a concourse prefect car.. research your *** off. if you want a driver, make sure you know what to look for and aslo find what you want in a 356 driver.
are you looking to get one to sell and make a profit on? if so.. you need to search which 356 models are becoming more valuable. for instance, look at the price of a speedster 5 years ago.. and look at what they are going for this year (this year happens to be the anniv. of the speedster.. high in demand.. if you know how to invest in any market, you always look to the future, whats comming up and what will be hitting heavily in popularity in the near fuiture).
diy work is easy. if youve done anything to a vw beetle.. its basically the same concept. but if you want to really get deep into engine repairs.. forget everything you ever learned about a vw.. as they get much more complicated when you get deep into the heart of the beast. (notice i didnt say tougher.. same basic concept/compnets in a way, just everything is much more precise, balanced, and sophisticated i guess). but changing oil, checking valves, changing v-belt, etc.. carbs are a bit more difficult to balance too.
no matter what your purpose is the name of the game is engine and body (rust and paint). rust is cancer, and it kills. you have to figure to strip repair and repaint a car completey will be about 5-15k depending on how bad the body is before you paint. an good, proper engine will be about 7-9k and up.. depending on how far you wanna go with it. even more depending on which year and scarcity of the parts. now you can get 'rebuilt' engines for 2-3k.. but you dont know who built them, the quality of the parts, or the quality of the build. you do not want some vw mechanic building you a 356 engine. the maestro (Harry Pellow.. someone you should learn, study and know all of his works if youre getting into 356s), would call these engines 'turkeys'.
now if you want to get into somthing thats pristine, and concourse (or more original if not a show car) you take the body and engine concept.. and you add on originality etc..
basically.. it is best to buy the absolute best condition early porsche you can buy.. its simple economics. since i know the 912 best as far as values go, i will use it as an example. why buy a 3,000 912, thats got a rotten body and worse engine, and spend 8k on a motor (freshening up carbs and everything else as needed while at it), 10k on body and paint, 2k in rechroming, 2k in reappolstering, 600 in wheels 400 in tires (assumung the wheels that came on the beast are rough). there you spent at least 26k, trying to restore a 912 into perfect condition (and this is a low estimate), which will only be worth 10k if your lucky when your done (and everything complete and perfect), where as you could have spent 20k on an all original concorse condition example, thats really worth 20k, and will gain more in value than the previous example. this concept applies to all porsches really.. its just with some models, that you are talking bigger numbers -especially the 356, due to its desireability, rarity of parts, etc. '
here are some links for you
www.356registry.org
www.hcpresearch.com
(hcp research was the home page of the late great harry pellow.. although he is no longer living and his shop close, you should read his articles, and find his books.. they are the holy grail for all 356 engines, repairs, maintenence etc. his write ups and articles on his web site are very informative, amusing, and funny! and they will teach you a few things about what kind of things to keep in mind mechanically)
12-22-2003, 04:33 PM
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The Hoffinator
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one more thing.. location is everything. buy the car from california, az, nevada, or somewhere else dry.
mid west, florida, louisiana, new england.. try to stay away from these locals as these places are conducive to rust.. thats not to say all 356s there are rust buckets.. and not a california cars are rust free either! but you have abetter chance of finding a solid car in cali than anywhere else.
best of luck, and hope everything comes out good, cause that silver bullet is a sharp one!
mid west, florida, louisiana, new england.. try to stay away from these locals as these places are conducive to rust.. thats not to say all 356s there are rust buckets.. and not a california cars are rust free either! but you have abetter chance of finding a solid car in cali than anywhere else.
best of luck, and hope everything comes out good, cause that silver bullet is a sharp one!
12-22-2003, 06:35 PM
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Hi JIm.......
I'm having an inspection done today on the 57 Speedster that is for sale at European Collectibles. If it turns out to be as good as it looks on their website it will have a new home. I used to live nearby this place and they usually sell pretty good, straight cars. If you need a PPI done on the car your interested in I can give you my friends number to arrange an inspection. He charges $350 for a top to bottom COMPLETE inspection and hes worked on 356s since 356s were new! He runs one of the top 356 restoration shops in SoCal.
Good Luck.....keep us posted!
I'm having an inspection done today on the 57 Speedster that is for sale at European Collectibles. If it turns out to be as good as it looks on their website it will have a new home. I used to live nearby this place and they usually sell pretty good, straight cars. If you need a PPI done on the car your interested in I can give you my friends number to arrange an inspection. He charges $350 for a top to bottom COMPLETE inspection and hes worked on 356s since 356s were new! He runs one of the top 356 restoration shops in SoCal.
Good Luck.....keep us posted!
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12-22-2003, 06:49 PM
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BTW here's a couple of pictures of our '65 Euro C Coupe.....
Also Jim I also see you are in Virginia. This coming year the 356 Registry's East Coast Holiday in Williamsburg. Should be over a couple of hundred 356's or more there the end of September / first of October.
Check out www.356regisrty.org
Also Jim I also see you are in Virginia. This coming year the 356 Registry's East Coast Holiday in Williamsburg. Should be over a couple of hundred 356's or more there the end of September / first of October.
Check out www.356regisrty.org
12-22-2003, 07:15 PM
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To all - thanks for diving in on this.
I never really had a problem with knowing what to do regarding buying any car but this 356 has really scrambled my eggs. The other circumstance affecting this is that I'm kinda running under a financial 'yellow flag' at the moment - three months ago or three months from now I'd be all over this car... I hate to see what I want and hesitate for whatever reason only to lose it and return to the drawing boards. I haven't even called EC for fear that the whole thing will spin out of control and suddenly I'll have a 356 on its way to me when I should have excercised caution, as in "I have a great wife and I really want to stay married to her."
Kidding, but you get my drift.
There aren't many things I'm a newbie at anymore but this seems to be one. I accept that I'm definitely just learning the 356 thing, but I'm feeling compelled, even driven - I want that car to be right and I want to own it and take it on early morning scoots for bagels when the rest of the world sleeps. Really, I need counseling.
RJT - would that be Willhoit? I've discovered them, too, and since they're nearby would probably use them for the definitive opinion on the car.
Harry - ever hear Mark Murphy sing The Ballad of Sad Young Men in a Kerouac-induced haze?
I never really had a problem with knowing what to do regarding buying any car but this 356 has really scrambled my eggs. The other circumstance affecting this is that I'm kinda running under a financial 'yellow flag' at the moment - three months ago or three months from now I'd be all over this car... I hate to see what I want and hesitate for whatever reason only to lose it and return to the drawing boards. I haven't even called EC for fear that the whole thing will spin out of control and suddenly I'll have a 356 on its way to me when I should have excercised caution, as in "I have a great wife and I really want to stay married to her."
Kidding, but you get my drift.There aren't many things I'm a newbie at anymore but this seems to be one. I accept that I'm definitely just learning the 356 thing, but I'm feeling compelled, even driven - I want that car to be right and I want to own it and take it on early morning scoots for bagels when the rest of the world sleeps. Really, I need counseling.
RJT - would that be Willhoit? I've discovered them, too, and since they're nearby would probably use them for the definitive opinion on the car.
Harry - ever hear Mark Murphy sing The Ballad of Sad Young Men in a Kerouac-induced haze?
12-22-2003, 07:38 PM
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Jim......John Wilhoit is also one of the best 356 guys around and a friend. I had Jim Gordon check out the 57 Speedster for me. Should be hearing from him any time now....................
12-23-2003, 04:56 PM
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So today I find on the EC website that the coupe is sold....
Whew, that was close. Now maybe I can settle down and go about this in a slightly more orderly way.
Consider me an official lurker on the 356 forum! I am going to own a 356, in 2004 I hope.
RJT - nice photos. Man, it looks like you could eat of that motor. How did the Speedster PPI go?
Whew, that was close. Now maybe I can settle down and go about this in a slightly more orderly way.
Consider me an official lurker on the 356 forum! I am going to own a 356, in 2004 I hope.
RJT - nice photos. Man, it looks like you could eat of that motor. How did the Speedster PPI go?
12-23-2003, 08:47 PM
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Jim.......Sorry to hear you didn't get the 356 you were "lusting" after. Usually the really good cars don't last very long at Euro Collect. The PPI was delayed because its been raining in LA for the past two days. Jim Gordon will do it tomorrow if the weather permits. Weather Channel says partly cloudy.
I would recomend buying a couple of 356 books and really decide which 356 is right for you. There's a big difference between an early car and late car like a C (64-65). Cs came with disc brakes and are pretty much refined compared to a pre A etc. But the early cars have a mistique or something thats hard to describe. Once you drive a sorted out 356 you will be hooked.
If the Speedster passes inspection, my 356 or the 993 will be for sale. I hate to part with either one but there's no room in the garage for a FOURTH Porsche!
Thanks for the comment about eating off the 356s engine. Actually you probably could! This past summer we completely rebuilt it top to bottom. Balanced and BP'd, new crank, cam, heads, on and on.......She runs like a Carrera!
Fingers crossed for tomorrow's PPI.......
I would recomend buying a couple of 356 books and really decide which 356 is right for you. There's a big difference between an early car and late car like a C (64-65). Cs came with disc brakes and are pretty much refined compared to a pre A etc. But the early cars have a mistique or something thats hard to describe. Once you drive a sorted out 356 you will be hooked.
If the Speedster passes inspection, my 356 or the 993 will be for sale. I hate to part with either one but there's no room in the garage for a FOURTH Porsche!
Thanks for the comment about eating off the 356s engine. Actually you probably could! This past summer we completely rebuilt it top to bottom. Balanced and BP'd, new crank, cam, heads, on and on.......She runs like a Carrera!
Fingers crossed for tomorrow's PPI.......
12-24-2003, 12:04 PM
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RJT - I'm not worried. I know I will find the right 356 - if I look at the sold inventory at EC, there are about 4 cars there that really get me going, not to mention all the other sources that I'm only now discovering.
Speaking of which...
We should all have your problems!
Seems to me that a 993 and a 356 is much more versatile/sensible than two 356s. But then again I'm the newbie here.
Add me to the list of those who would be interested in talking to you if you decide to sell your 356. I only want a car that is all sorted out and ready to go and yours is an outstanding example.
Thanks for the help and have a great Christmas.
Speaking of which...
Originally posted by RJT 993
If the Speedster passes inspection, my 356 or the 993 will be for sale. I hate to part with either one but there's no room in the garage for a FOURTH Porsche!
If the Speedster passes inspection, my 356 or the 993 will be for sale. I hate to part with either one but there's no room in the garage for a FOURTH Porsche!
Seems to me that a 993 and a 356 is much more versatile/sensible than two 356s. But then again I'm the newbie here.
Add me to the list of those who would be interested in talking to you if you decide to sell your 356. I only want a car that is all sorted out and ready to go and yours is an outstanding example.
Thanks for the help and have a great Christmas.
12-26-2003, 09:58 AM
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Buying a 356- a good idea?
Hi Jim,
If you drive a good 356, you'll immediately know why the original VW design was called KDF, or "Strength through Joy". The sheer satisfying pleasure of driving a 356 is something I've not experienced in any other mode of transportation (other than possibly my first successful ride on a two wheel bicycle when I was in elementary school). But the joy is not through sheer strength, but from a marvelous combination of simple but effective design and a wonderful light touch to the controls.
Is it worth the money? My experience has been that buying a good 356 (and by good I mean a never seriously rusty, original as possible, non-modified car) will always bring your money back, and often more. And I have had quite a few over the last 20 years. So you can essentially own the car for the cost of maintenance and expenses.
I see that you are from Northern Virginia, which, in my part of Virginia, we refer to as "Occupied Virginia", so I wonder about the suitability of a 356 to your stop and go, sitting in I-66 traffic. The car is certainly capable of handling such conditions, but it sure takes the fun out of driving for driving's sake. You'd be better served by your 993 for such driving. However, if you venture out this way, into the Shenandoah Valley, down the Skyline Drive and Blue Ridge Parkway, the 356 pays big rewards in fun driving.
I just bought a 1962 356S coupe with all original interior and 80,000 miles, records, no rust ever, ivory with red interior the day before Christmas. If you'd like to venture down here to Waynesboro, you can take it out for a nice long drive to see if you like 356s. This car is a very good one, so you can get a good idea of what the fuss is all about. Just send me an email.
One final note, don't buy a 356 if you don't have a garage. They are just too precious (and fragile at this age) to leave by the curb.
Happy Shopping, Jeff Ward
If you drive a good 356, you'll immediately know why the original VW design was called KDF, or "Strength through Joy". The sheer satisfying pleasure of driving a 356 is something I've not experienced in any other mode of transportation (other than possibly my first successful ride on a two wheel bicycle when I was in elementary school). But the joy is not through sheer strength, but from a marvelous combination of simple but effective design and a wonderful light touch to the controls.
Is it worth the money? My experience has been that buying a good 356 (and by good I mean a never seriously rusty, original as possible, non-modified car) will always bring your money back, and often more. And I have had quite a few over the last 20 years. So you can essentially own the car for the cost of maintenance and expenses.
I see that you are from Northern Virginia, which, in my part of Virginia, we refer to as "Occupied Virginia", so I wonder about the suitability of a 356 to your stop and go, sitting in I-66 traffic. The car is certainly capable of handling such conditions, but it sure takes the fun out of driving for driving's sake. You'd be better served by your 993 for such driving. However, if you venture out this way, into the Shenandoah Valley, down the Skyline Drive and Blue Ridge Parkway, the 356 pays big rewards in fun driving.
I just bought a 1962 356S coupe with all original interior and 80,000 miles, records, no rust ever, ivory with red interior the day before Christmas. If you'd like to venture down here to Waynesboro, you can take it out for a nice long drive to see if you like 356s. This car is a very good one, so you can get a good idea of what the fuss is all about. Just send me an email.
One final note, don't buy a 356 if you don't have a garage. They are just too precious (and fragile at this age) to leave by the curb.
Happy Shopping, Jeff Ward