ASK THE COACH
#136
Rennlist
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You're just too fast.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#137
Burning Brakes
Thank you!
Here is what I meant: generally, the car knows the proper trajectory thru a corner, providing the driver provides some "adult supervision" at entry. If you accept this premise, then you should do everything possible to not "fight" the car & force it where it doesn't want to go. For example, many folks don't begin opening up their steering at apex, and they kill a lot of exit speed with front tire scrub...in addition to introducing instability as the front tires load up instead of the rears. So yes, your summary is accurate IMO.
Exercises? Start opening up steering (slowly, a few degrees at a time) sooner than your comfort level suggests....see if you go off track at track out! See if you are adding steering angle at or even after apex. Things like that.
Here is what I meant: generally, the car knows the proper trajectory thru a corner, providing the driver provides some "adult supervision" at entry. If you accept this premise, then you should do everything possible to not "fight" the car & force it where it doesn't want to go. For example, many folks don't begin opening up their steering at apex, and they kill a lot of exit speed with front tire scrub...in addition to introducing instability as the front tires load up instead of the rears. So yes, your summary is accurate IMO.
Exercises? Start opening up steering (slowly, a few degrees at a time) sooner than your comfort level suggests....see if you go off track at track out! See if you are adding steering angle at or even after apex. Things like that.
I brake a little earlier, carry a little more speed at the apex, but that causes me to understeer slightly on mid-corner to exit (check the steering angle) which keeps me from being 100% throttle as earlier as he is. Needless to say I had that problem on all the corners before long straights which was the biggest factor in our lap time difference (1:48.5 vs 1:50.2).
-mike
#138
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yup! Thanks for posting the Motec traces, it tells the tale. Another common behavior is, for example, tracking out of a right hander at the normal place track left, and then "forcing" the car way track right (almost the curb to cuurb driving I mentioned earlier) for a following left hander, just to get a wider arc. Sometimes, this forcing the car where it really doesn't want to go is slower than allowing it where it does want to go and having a slightly less wide arc. An example of this is the 8-9 complex at Watkins Glen.
#139
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Coaches,
Great thread by the way...thanks for starting it.
Question: What advice can you provide to help me (us) overcome a driving plateau?
I feel that my progression has slowed. I only see the track a limited time each year which makes it difficult, but my lap times have only shown very minor improvement over the last 2 or so years. I feel very comfortable driving at my current lap times, but want to figure out how to get myself over hump and start to see my lap times dropping again. It is absolutely not the car that is the limiting factor (I'm about 1-1.5 seconds off where I would like to be), but how do you help students overcome the mental limits they place on themselves...
Thanks,
-Skip
Great thread by the way...thanks for starting it.
Question: What advice can you provide to help me (us) overcome a driving plateau?
I feel that my progression has slowed. I only see the track a limited time each year which makes it difficult, but my lap times have only shown very minor improvement over the last 2 or so years. I feel very comfortable driving at my current lap times, but want to figure out how to get myself over hump and start to see my lap times dropping again. It is absolutely not the car that is the limiting factor (I'm about 1-1.5 seconds off where I would like to be), but how do you help students overcome the mental limits they place on themselves...
Thanks,
-Skip
#140
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I would suggest either get & use a data acquisition system, and compare some of your better laps with others who are closer to the pace you would like to be at, or get some good instructors/coaches in your right seat, or both. Two of the biggest ways drivers create mental limits on themselves is by overbraking, and by coming off the gas & coasting in anticipation of braking. There are others, of course, thhat are more evident via data & in car instruction.
#141
Rennlist Member
IMO, that book is more stories about his career than a "this is how to drive a Porsche" book. I thought it was one of the least informative driving books I've read. Maybe his style just didn't appeal to me.
#143
#144
Rennlist Member
great data from T-hill. your times are very fast, but it shows where you can improve vs the other driver.
Looks like you are over baking, turn 6, have faster cornering speeds, but the other car is on the throttle earlier and it shows the big gains down the straight to turn 8. there you can see the differences. over braking, longer braking duration and earlier etc, thats the difference there. the later and tappered braking, will indicate more trail braking and that might help his car rotation to be able to get on the gas earlier too. I would bet if the same differnces show up for turn 9, the 10-11-12 complex, there is the difference in lap times.
Looks like you are over baking, turn 6, have faster cornering speeds, but the other car is on the throttle earlier and it shows the big gains down the straight to turn 8. there you can see the differences. over braking, longer braking duration and earlier etc, thats the difference there. the later and tappered braking, will indicate more trail braking and that might help his car rotation to be able to get on the gas earlier too. I would bet if the same differnces show up for turn 9, the 10-11-12 complex, there is the difference in lap times.
This is exactly the problem I'm facing rite now. Last week I went out with a buddy/pro to my home track (Thunderhill) and was trying to figure out how to get faster after I had plateaued in lap times. Here's a snapshot of my motec data which describes exactly what you're saying (ignore T7/T8 was held up by a slower car):
I brake a little earlier, carry a little more speed at the apex, but that causes me to understeer slightly on mid-corner to exit (check the steering angle) which keeps me from being 100% throttle as earlier as he is. Needless to say I had that problem on all the corners before long straights which was the biggest factor in our lap time difference (1:48.5 vs 1:50.2).
-mike
I brake a little earlier, carry a little more speed at the apex, but that causes me to understeer slightly on mid-corner to exit (check the steering angle) which keeps me from being 100% throttle as earlier as he is. Needless to say I had that problem on all the corners before long straights which was the biggest factor in our lap time difference (1:48.5 vs 1:50.2).
-mike
#145
Race Car
Why do professional racers approach corner entries at an angle? I see this in F1 all the time from the track-side cameras but don't understand why. For example, see 0:48-0:55 in this clip where Lewis exits the turn 9/10 sequence on right side of track, moves toward track center and then returns to right side of track to approach turn 11 at an angle:
#146
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
IMO in that clip, he does not steer the car back to the right, it appears the track is not perfectly straight there & he is just letting the car go where it wants to go. In addition, you (generally) want as large a radius to each corner as possible, and thus starting from the far outside edge of the track, if the car easily goes there, is a great way to open up this arc.
#147
IMO in that clip, he does not steer the car back to the right, it appears the track is not perfectly straight there & he is just letting the car go where it wants to go. In addition, you (generally) want as large a radius to each corner as possible, and thus starting from the far outside edge of the track, if the car easily goes there, is a great way to open up this arc.
Coach Dave,
What's your thinking regarding use of curbing as well?
#149
Rennlist Member
IMO in that clip, he does not steer the car back to the right, it appears the track is not perfectly straight there & he is just letting the car go where it wants to go. In addition, you (generally) want as large a radius to each corner as possible, and thus starting from the far outside edge of the track, if the car easily goes there, is a great way to open up this arc.
Why do professional racers approach corner entries at an angle? I see this in F1 all the time from the track-side cameras but don't understand why. For example, see 0:48-0:55 in this clip where Lewis exits the turn 9/10 sequence on right side of track, moves toward track center and then returns to right side of track to approach turn 11 at an angle:
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#150
Rennlist Member
Dave,
if you would - can you put in here a list of some core principles that pro guys use, as I and a lot of folks I personally know had a very similar impression like 'I just drove with a pro guy, he was amazingly fast and his lines were nowhere near to what I used to do'. Is it possible to 'summarize' what is it they do what we do not do?
Really, it is very little info out there of how one should 'draw a line' around depending of various changing factors and it takes heck of a mental toll to go from 'static' model into 'dynamic', especially on a track you run most of the time. But I would prefer to listen about that than to say too much of my own non-sense.
if you would - can you put in here a list of some core principles that pro guys use, as I and a lot of folks I personally know had a very similar impression like 'I just drove with a pro guy, he was amazingly fast and his lines were nowhere near to what I used to do'. Is it possible to 'summarize' what is it they do what we do not do?
Really, it is very little info out there of how one should 'draw a line' around depending of various changing factors and it takes heck of a mental toll to go from 'static' model into 'dynamic', especially on a track you run most of the time. But I would prefer to listen about that than to say too much of my own non-sense.