UOA with DT40 and a question or two.
10-09-2015, 02:57 PM
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UOA with DT40 and a question or two.
The previous two UOA's were done with Motul Xcess 5w-40, the current one is DT40.
What I noticed was the lower levels of ZDDP compared to the Motul and the lower TBN as well as the lower Flashpoint. However, the SUS and cST was higher, by quite a bit.
You are supposed to go to 5000 miles with DT40 but with a TBN of 2.4 I'm not sure if you can, or at least with my driving style I can't.
I'm toying with the possibility of going back to Motul or something else because of the lower numbers that I mentioned but I'm hesitant because of the better SUS and cST.
Anyone have any comments?
Mike
What I noticed was the lower levels of ZDDP compared to the Motul and the lower TBN as well as the lower Flashpoint. However, the SUS and cST was higher, by quite a bit.
You are supposed to go to 5000 miles with DT40 but with a TBN of 2.4 I'm not sure if you can, or at least with my driving style I can't.
I'm toying with the possibility of going back to Motul or something else because of the lower numbers that I mentioned but I'm hesitant because of the better SUS and cST.
Anyone have any comments?
Mike
10-09-2015, 03:08 PM
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DT40 fights with a lot of other oil's additive packages. That's why they recommend doing a flush with BR40 ( not exactly sure of the product name.......check).
That's what I think your seeing here.
I've also noticed the lower zinc and phosphorus levels too. But I also saw lower high temp high shear values, and went with Mobil 5W50. Very happy with and Porsche A40 approved.
Motul is a great oil. Go back to it or try the Mobil 5W50.
I have all my UOAs in the 991 Forum. There are 5. One factory fill, 2 DT40 and 2 M1 5W50.
That's what I think your seeing here.
I've also noticed the lower zinc and phosphorus levels too. But I also saw lower high temp high shear values, and went with Mobil 5W50. Very happy with and Porsche A40 approved.
Motul is a great oil. Go back to it or try the Mobil 5W50.
I have all my UOAs in the 991 Forum. There are 5. One factory fill, 2 DT40 and 2 M1 5W50.
10-09-2015, 03:59 PM
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I've looked at your oil thread, but from what I remember, it's mostly for your break-in. I guess I need to look at it again and look at the other numbers.
Thanks!
Mike
10-09-2015, 10:12 PM
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10-09-2015, 10:16 PM
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I've seen the effects first hand with two different Porsches. It's pretty obvious when you study the UOAs.
10-10-2015, 02:51 AM
#7
Former Vendor
You are dealing with cross pollination from the previous oils. Don't base the performance of the oil on the first UOA, or even the second.
To take this out of the equation, we perform a 100 mile flush with BR30 prior to the first service fill of DT40.
To take this out of the equation, we perform a 100 mile flush with BR30 prior to the first service fill of DT40.
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10-10-2015, 10:53 AM
#8
Drifting
Is a filter change also necessary between the BR30 and DT40?
10-10-2015, 10:55 AM
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10-10-2015, 10:58 AM
#10
Former Vendor
Absolutely.. The filter alone holds a good amount of oil.
During development we found it necessary to drop sump plates to get as much oil out of the engine when changing formulas. There are products developed specifically for the purpose of flushing between oils.
During development we found it necessary to drop sump plates to get as much oil out of the engine when changing formulas. There are products developed specifically for the purpose of flushing between oils.
10-10-2015, 12:08 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Forget oil expertise, and I know Luke (Luxter?) and Jack can write books, but the fact of the matter is that if I were committing my product to an engine, and I was interested in an UOA, then I'd be seeking to eliminate all variables, and that means the most variables are eliminated by using a 100% clean engine.
Since this is not practical (possible... not practical) you'd want as much of the other brand/type of oil out of the engine/oil system.
That's it. Period.
It's called eliminating variables. And anyone in their right mind would do it if they were standing behind a product.
I love Luxter's posts, after heavy digestion of all info, but if this turns into some half-arsed chemistry discussion, then the point is missed.
If I tell you to add my product, and encourage UOA, I want ALL the old crap out of there... and if that ain't do-able... get as much out as you can. End. Of. Story.
.
Since this is not practical (possible... not practical) you'd want as much of the other brand/type of oil out of the engine/oil system.
That's it. Period.
It's called eliminating variables. And anyone in their right mind would do it if they were standing behind a product.
I love Luxter's posts, after heavy digestion of all info, but if this turns into some half-arsed chemistry discussion, then the point is missed.
If I tell you to add my product, and encourage UOA, I want ALL the old crap out of there... and if that ain't do-able... get as much out as you can. End. Of. Story.
.
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10-10-2015, 06:35 PM
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I'm not going to disagree about the cross pollination, but what are the numbers supposed to look like at about 3500 or so. I'm not talking wear metals, I'm talking the other numbers, viscosity numbers, TBN etc.
Would the cross pollination cause the TBN to be that low at 3500 miles? I would expect it to be at least as good as the others.
Mike
Would the cross pollination cause the TBN to be that low at 3500 miles? I would expect it to be at least as good as the others.
Mike
10-10-2015, 06:45 PM
#14
Former Vendor
I'm not going to disagree about the cross pollination, but what are the numbers supposed to look like at about 3500 or so. I'm not talking wear metals, I'm talking the other numbers, viscosity numbers, TBN etc.
Would the cross pollination cause the TBN to be that low at 3500 miles? I would expect it to be at least as good as the others.
Mike
Would the cross pollination cause the TBN to be that low at 3500 miles? I would expect it to be at least as good as the others.
Mike
10-10-2015, 08:22 PM
#15
Warning: It Might Get Long
First, thank you all for the kind words.
Second, I don’t have a dog in this race. I don’t benefit in any way from sales of Motul or DT products and I’ve settled on a different brand quite some time ago. I used X-Cess with very good results and happily shared that on this very forum with other RListers.
Third, I have no doubt that a LOT of hard work went to development of DT40 and I don't want to take any of that away, whatsoever.
I however don’t think Mike’s questions are answered here. Mike, please correct me at any point:
1.
Mike’s first fill with X-Cess was also a subject to “Crosspollination” with whatever he used prior to X-Cess. Yet Motul retained very solid mg KOH/g. His question is why DT dropped so significantly down to 2.4.
2.
Based on LN web site, DT40 KV’s are 76.81 (40C) and 13.03 (100C). Well, his 100C UOA KV is actually 14.65 which is 1.6 cSt MORE than the virgin fill. There are a few thickening mechanisms known, none a good thing. The difference exceeds calibration or human errors. Again, why did DT thickened over 3,550 miles?
3.
If all of the above could be contributed to “crosspollination” then what are the mechanisms of that and why other oils do not suffer in similar way?
For benefit of all RListers, here is what jumps to my mind:
1.
We know that Castrol as an example have horrible data sheets, some of the worst in industry. However, Driven has none available, or I cannot find any. Again I don’t have a dog here, but that does not project favorably to me. I could run a VOA and get some of that info, but why?
2.
We know that flat 6 Porsches do not drain well. In fact we’re dealing with about 1 – 1.5 L of old oil for every fresh fill. Why do I however have to flush the engine with oil, which is 30 weight? Why not just run DT40 for say 500 miles as a flush method?
3.
Looks like DT40 is holding viscosity well (given that we’re not dealing with oxidative thickening) however is DT40 still work in progress in terms of other oil properties?
4.
Is DT40 miscible with other mineral and synthetic oils?
5.
In case I wanted to gradually increase viscosity of my engine lubricant, what is the next available viscosity (10W-50 or similar) compatible with DT40 that can be used? Let me explain: Say I wanted to bring my oil to upper limits of 5W-40 by adding 10%-20% (or potentially more) of 10W-50 to my fresh fill.
Is there a way to bring all collective knowledge of all bright folks at Driven, Lubrizol, LN and F6 and give us some decent answers to the above?
*None of it is meant as any form of attack and I hope it doesn’t sound that way. I would however appreciate answers that are appropriate for post secondary level of education.
Cheers,
Luke
Second, I don’t have a dog in this race. I don’t benefit in any way from sales of Motul or DT products and I’ve settled on a different brand quite some time ago. I used X-Cess with very good results and happily shared that on this very forum with other RListers.
Third, I have no doubt that a LOT of hard work went to development of DT40 and I don't want to take any of that away, whatsoever.
I however don’t think Mike’s questions are answered here. Mike, please correct me at any point:
1.
Mike’s first fill with X-Cess was also a subject to “Crosspollination” with whatever he used prior to X-Cess. Yet Motul retained very solid mg KOH/g. His question is why DT dropped so significantly down to 2.4.
2.
Based on LN web site, DT40 KV’s are 76.81 (40C) and 13.03 (100C). Well, his 100C UOA KV is actually 14.65 which is 1.6 cSt MORE than the virgin fill. There are a few thickening mechanisms known, none a good thing. The difference exceeds calibration or human errors. Again, why did DT thickened over 3,550 miles?
3.
If all of the above could be contributed to “crosspollination” then what are the mechanisms of that and why other oils do not suffer in similar way?
For benefit of all RListers, here is what jumps to my mind:
1.
We know that Castrol as an example have horrible data sheets, some of the worst in industry. However, Driven has none available, or I cannot find any. Again I don’t have a dog here, but that does not project favorably to me. I could run a VOA and get some of that info, but why?
2.
We know that flat 6 Porsches do not drain well. In fact we’re dealing with about 1 – 1.5 L of old oil for every fresh fill. Why do I however have to flush the engine with oil, which is 30 weight? Why not just run DT40 for say 500 miles as a flush method?
3.
Looks like DT40 is holding viscosity well (given that we’re not dealing with oxidative thickening) however is DT40 still work in progress in terms of other oil properties?
4.
Is DT40 miscible with other mineral and synthetic oils?
5.
In case I wanted to gradually increase viscosity of my engine lubricant, what is the next available viscosity (10W-50 or similar) compatible with DT40 that can be used? Let me explain: Say I wanted to bring my oil to upper limits of 5W-40 by adding 10%-20% (or potentially more) of 10W-50 to my fresh fill.
Is there a way to bring all collective knowledge of all bright folks at Driven, Lubrizol, LN and F6 and give us some decent answers to the above?
*None of it is meant as any form of attack and I hope it doesn’t sound that way. I would however appreciate answers that are appropriate for post secondary level of education.
Cheers,
Luke