Carl Fausett

Even with a good engine cross brace in place, there is still so much twist in the forward section that you will loose Camber. That is why this was invented

http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...rame_brace.php

Customers write that they were able to go from -3 deg camber in the front to -2 as a result, and they had improved braking and cornering/lap times.

This brace ties the lower a-arm mounting point to the other side, virtually doubling the torsional stiffness of the tube frame by sharing the moment of torque with the tube on the other side of the car (which at this time mid-corner, is doing next to nothing.)

Please follow the link to see for yourself. It works really well! http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/...rame_brace.php

ROG100

Actually I do not agree - the amount viewing at any one time is still shown - currently 297. I thought Devek went out of business because of bad practices and did not leave because of peeps on Rennlist. I also thought Dave Lomas left Rennlist because of the sponsorship fees and not the peeps.

What other manufacturers left?

As for users the numbers ebb and flow but are still as high as back in the early 2000's

Carl Fausett

OK - I'll yield.

I will make the un-engraved cross-brace if I have 10 confirmed orders. I cant afford the machine-time on a smaller batch (the ends are cut from 6061 billet).
But I'm smarter now than I used to be, and by confirmed orders, I mean Gretchen has the order and has taken a deposit of 50% on it.

Price will be same as it is right now, and I will sell it unpolished (mill finish) or polished, same as we do now.

Here is her number 920-485-0928
Here is her email address gretchen@928motorsports.com

I will post how many confirmed orders we have as it goes. When I hit 10, we're golden.

mark kibort

Carl... please, lets get real here. i helped anderson with handling at the track by getting him down to 2 degrees camber front and rearl his car was much better after that. my car is amazing at 2 degrees and very even tire wear both street and during racing. if it wasnt good, the braking wouldnt be exceeding the pad specs forcing me to larger rotors and PFC-11s and the tires wouldnt be wearing perfectly. no outside edge scrub at all. im running stickier tires , running a heck of a lot faster than you and the DE folks testimonials, which are pushing the car hard for sure, but nowhere near the forces on slicks by racers in race cars.
I also dont understnand how you can loose camber by the bottom structure caving in, with the cross member support in place. ive never seen it, and have put the video camera on the wheel and tire where you can see small changes in camber and none is lost to the forces of the turn.

another thing, is that if here was any force that could budge that part of the frame rails , because of the positioning of the lower control arm mounts, the movement would be more around toe changes not camber, desensitizing the steering, but that isnt happening either.

1 degree of camber is near .5" of tire movement at the top of the tire. this you should see in an unmodified car and you just dont! these are the types of claims that just loose you credibility. plus, in a race car (not so much the street) that bar is too low and will bottom the car out. raise it up to not hit the ground (with those runner skid pads) and you never will be able to pull the Gs in turns vs a car that was 1" lower.
with all your technology... you need some real race track experience that we are doing out west. i am more than happy to test and report of thing that can have any chance of making my car go faster!

Carl Fausett

Wow are these pictures old. Our previous shop even, before we moved. I was trying to measure the deflection in the stock and our own engine cross brace. Simple bending load, like it experiences in the car.

Results: the stock cross-brace would flex 2 inches under a 45 pound load, while our design flexed 1/4" under the same load.

Its not just bling. It's many times stronger than the OEM part.

mark kibort

Carl,

if you study where the forces are going in a high G loading turn, they are not lateral on that tire. its more of a rearward force and that is split from the front bushing to the rear. also, how much force are you generating at that point. its extremely doubtful that any significant movement could be observed or measured, certainly not the 1/2" of tire movement required to make 1degree camber changes as you claim.. these guesses dont help the marketability of these kinds of solutions. so, again. its a solution, looking for a problem that isnt there.

mark kibort

Carl!!!!!!! REALLY??

this is in NO WAY how the crossbar is resisting forces. this is NOT how it experiences forces in the car!! there is no value in its leverage strength, so why test for that. the fact that you are setting up a test like this, shows us that you have no idea what forces are at the shock towers. is there anything that creates this vulcrum point on our cars???? so how can you claim the forces are the same as in the car as in this "test".

here is a test. say it takes 1000lbs to compress the front springs 1"..... so, take 2000lbs by pulling the car down. (the shops do this to do alignment) and see how much the towers cave toward each other. then.. put the cross bar on, measure again.
high cornering loads will put tension or compression on the bar.. if the bar is not enough, it will bend, or it will stretch and break. they dont, so they work as designed.
its not a leverage bar, is a compression or stretching bar.

Carl Fausett

Your "I'm the best driver in the world" thing is really getting old. I'm quite certain I have pulled lateral G's as similar as you or anyone else. I think I can also say I have more varied 928 experience than you have. This year I have been am sorting out a "new car" - you, on the other hand, have the distinct advantage of changing almost nothing apparently, for YEARS.

So knock off the passive-aggressive BS will ya?

Carl Fausett

No, the forces are torsional on the tube that the lower swing arm is bolted to. The tube is twisting.

The lower a-arm has more than 5 inches of torque-lever moment on the tube it is hanging from, and as the forces push in and out on the bottom of the tire (with an even greater torque-lever moment) the tube is rotated torsionaly. If the tire+wheel has a 22" diameter, then it can be said the center of the hub is 11" off the ground.

Add them together and the road has a 16" breaker bar twisting that frame...

Carl Fausett

Gotta go - have a good evening. I'll pick this up in the morning if I need to. I hope I don't.

Offer still stands. I will take orders with 50% down for either an un-engraved and unfinished engine cross-brace or a un-engraved and polished cross-brace. When I get 10 deposits, I'll make them. It takes about 1 month to manufacture. I have this crazy good welder and I wait until he can do them. What he does is nothing short of art!

mark kibort

Carl, you have not pulled any where near the gs i have . if you have, you would have seen 10 seconds a lap faster times.. that's ok, you have admitted that you are new to the game. Here you go again... how can you say you are quite certain when we all have video showing that you are not pulling the gs you think you have. Its not passive aggressive.. its truth. I hate to tell you Carl, but its the elephant in the room. This is 20 years or racing full seasons in the same car that has evolved to a peak (for resources allowed).. how can you be certain....?? if you are then why are the times so much slower than mine? where are you pulling these g's? you claimed you did 2.5 g peak values... this, by any stretch is complete BS who measures peak g forces anyway... its a curb you hit carl! anyway, you dont have g meters in your car, we have seen no video of this. all you have is a set of FACTUAL lap times that are only what a fast spec miata will do. by the way, i pass those things in turns, sraights off line and whenever i see one, no matter who is driving! not that they cant drive, become some are the best out there, but because my car is that good. if you run a 1:44 at Mid ohio.. thats a fast spec miata time and you cannot be pulling anywhere near the g's that i can. Im not going to shy away about my capability as a driver or what the 928 can do. This is known, and very simple stuff here Carl. generally, i always will be 10 seconds faster than any spec miata. If you can do that, then you might have registered near the same gs.. however, thats with 373rwhp, not 900hp. If you want to run a 1:30 to 1:34 at mid ohio... .Let me know.. i can help. But, right now, you not pulling the g's to test the stuff you are selling, simply by the fact of the times you are running. you cant bend ecentrics in the rear, bend the chassis up front to change camber 1 degree, or any of the outlandish claims running as fast as the fastest miatas or GTS1 bmws/porsche 944s. its the truth Carl, and i hate to bring it up, but I really do want to help and I can.

If there was ANYTHING that could help me shave a few tenths off my time, i would be the first in line to buy it, if it wasnt a consumable like tires.
Now as far as my coaching and racing ability... i do get paid to help racers improve their times and they always seem very happy after a day with me.
Im a sports coach .. Its what i do and have done for years at a national level. I see things that work, do them myself and then try to help others do the same.
I'm positive i could drop your times 4-5 seconds a lap in one day..... thats a promise. For those on the outside, racing seems like rocket science. but when you do something for a long time (like you building engines) it's becomes very easy and comfortable to do.

All your twisting forces and solutions are pure guess work, you have to admit.
the crossbar is a nice bolt on bling device... but dont over sell it.
the bottom bar is also a solution looking for a problem. its all theory at this point and you havent even considered the twisting force based on the degree of steering input. Huge difference in the direction of forces, right?

mark kibort

there are lateral forces on the tire.. actually not truly lateral , so those forces are not truly lateral to the car, as they push back and to the side of the tire. sure there are twisting forces that you mention, but the forces generated are not substantial enough to measure deflection in the tire on the road . you are guessing on this one. again, if that was the issue, i wouldn't be seeing such desirable tire wear at 2 degrees with racing slicks at high G loading course over 20 years of doing this stuff. if so, it the chassis would get worse and worse as well, and it hasn't.
also , that moment changes with ride height as well. something to think about too.

maybe ill rig up a clay connection of two dowels in a clear plastic tube and go out for a track lap and see if i can detect any movement.

i can guarantee this though.. .any gains by this device would be muted by the fact that you need 1/2" to 1" higher ride height for clearance. that is MURDER on g loading capabilities.

SMTCapeCod

Well now.

My thoughts, subjective though they may be, is that it is clear that it would be optimal to provide a crosbbrace to reinforce the "frame" under or at the mounting point of the a-arms, because the existing standoff still provides mechanical advantage for twisting. That's just naked eye rookie BS on my part, That said, by fortifying the upper part of the 'box' and the lower, the planes in which any deformation take place are reduced from 4 to 2. I mean it's a box, it can either flex along the planes or at the corners. So, is the reinforcement just adding more stress at potential flexpoint, or a substantial fortification? I'll guess the latter-- at least for anyone who is not a contender on the pro circuit.
Oh wait, does this lead us into the radiator-resilience debate? ;-)
As for the MK claims about G's and such..."Carl, you have not pulled any where near the gs i have . if you have, you would have seen 10 seconds a lap faster times." Defining that first assertion based on the following criteria is weak. I'm rather surprised if they hold water--just sayin', hill climbs, documented, what 700HP? But admittedly I can't say for certain.

Carl Fausett

Wrong again. Please check your unsubstantiated claims. It is no where near the lowest point on the car. And my car is lowered. Many customers have this installed and like it. I have looked, but I don't have a good photo laying down under the front of the car looking at the height of the install. If you have one installed, please provide a pic for Mark so he can see the installed height of this device?

Carl Fausett

Kibort - we need to discuss our racing resume's and do that general ****-measuring contest you seem want to do off the forum. Stick to the topic.