Does my automatic transmission need to be rebuilt/replaced?
02-26-2015, 09:05 AM
#16
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Greg often expresses dismay at what we amateurs do, and also at what many "professionals" do. It seems to boil down to advice that we seek out people who know what they're doing. The wisdom of this is unassailable, of course.
But there are several problems: It requires a larger budget (actual expenses are another story). It can mean searching for a local unicorn. And it can spoil the sport that many of us actually seek, pursuing the thrill of victory while accepting the agony of defeat. We all have to decide whether to go skiing or not, and if we do, if we should venture down the black diamond trails.
Clearly, transmissions should be labelled double black diamond, or marked off limits. It's great to have someone like Greg keep us in bounds.
But there are several problems: It requires a larger budget (actual expenses are another story). It can mean searching for a local unicorn. And it can spoil the sport that many of us actually seek, pursuing the thrill of victory while accepting the agony of defeat. We all have to decide whether to go skiing or not, and if we do, if we should venture down the black diamond trails.
Clearly, transmissions should be labelled double black diamond, or marked off limits. It's great to have someone like Greg keep us in bounds.
02-26-2015, 10:24 AM
#17
Drifting
Greg often expresses dismay at what we amateurs do, and also at what many "professionals" do. It seems to boil down to advice that we seek out people who know what they're doing. The wisdom of this is unassailable, of course.
But there are several problems: It requires a larger budget (actual expenses are another story). It can mean searching for a local unicorn. And it can spoil the sport that many of us actually seek, pursuing the thrill of victory while accepting the agony of defeat. We all have to decide whether to go skiing or not, and if we do, if we should venture down the black diamond trails.
Clearly, transmissions should be labelled double black diamond, or marked off limits. It's great to have someone like Greg keep us in bounds.
But there are several problems: It requires a larger budget (actual expenses are another story). It can mean searching for a local unicorn. And it can spoil the sport that many of us actually seek, pursuing the thrill of victory while accepting the agony of defeat. We all have to decide whether to go skiing or not, and if we do, if we should venture down the black diamond trails.
Clearly, transmissions should be labelled double black diamond, or marked off limits. It's great to have someone like Greg keep us in bounds.
02-26-2015, 11:39 AM
#18
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Just buy a good used working transmission and bolt it in yourself. There is a good chance it will last at least 5 years. If it doesn't you are only out a grand or less.
02-26-2015, 11:43 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
The systemic problem is the word "rebuild", which has an entire different meaning to different people.
Most of these transmissions end up in the hands of "flat rate" Mercedes transmission rebuilders. They remove the entire differential section, as a unit , and set it to the side. Sometimes they will clean the outside, sometimes they bolt it back on filthy. I have no idea when they think the differential section is going to get looked at and re-sealed....most are seeping from the O-rings and seals getting hard, long before the transmissions need attention. They throw in a gasket set, a set of "offshore" clutches, grind off the hot spots on the steel clutch pieces, and throw them back together. No updates. No brake bands. No thrust bearings. Nothings but a basic transmission rebuild kit that they by for under $400.00. Toss in a "painted" convertor for under $200 and they are done. They charge $2500 for a non-itemized "rebuild", which gives them the highest profit margin possible. And the buyer gets the lowest quality end product possible.
This stuff should be reserved for the "used car lot" people....not for people that want to keep their cars.
I charge $1250 (12 hours) labor for a rebuild, plus parts. I rebuild and reseal the differential. (If it is a limited slip, I charge an additional $300 to service the limited skip, plus parts.)
I can't do one in 12 hours....can't get close. I'm not interested in how fast I can do one...never have been. Do it correctly the first time and be done with it.
Here's how it currently breaks down (approximately), for me:
2 hours----Disassemble with "gross" inspection during disassembly.
4 hours----Clean and do second "micro" inspection of pieces....make parts list while doing inspection.
4 hours----Sub-assemblies. Replace "hidden" 0-rings (machine clutch drums to accept new "hidden" O-rings). Rebuild clutch drums with new discs. Set up clearances in drums. "Rebuild" front pump assembly. Re-assemble planetary. Install new seals and 0-rings in case. Etc. Etc.
4 hours----Rebuild valve body. (Need to be left completely alone, without interruptions to be able to do one in this amount of time.) I ultrasonically clean every single tiny piece....not spray off the outside and blow it clean.
6 hours----Re-assemble and set-up clearances.
Most of these transmissions end up in the hands of "flat rate" Mercedes transmission rebuilders. They remove the entire differential section, as a unit , and set it to the side. Sometimes they will clean the outside, sometimes they bolt it back on filthy. I have no idea when they think the differential section is going to get looked at and re-sealed....most are seeping from the O-rings and seals getting hard, long before the transmissions need attention. They throw in a gasket set, a set of "offshore" clutches, grind off the hot spots on the steel clutch pieces, and throw them back together. No updates. No brake bands. No thrust bearings. Nothings but a basic transmission rebuild kit that they by for under $400.00. Toss in a "painted" convertor for under $200 and they are done. They charge $2500 for a non-itemized "rebuild", which gives them the highest profit margin possible. And the buyer gets the lowest quality end product possible.
This stuff should be reserved for the "used car lot" people....not for people that want to keep their cars.
I charge $1250 (12 hours) labor for a rebuild, plus parts. I rebuild and reseal the differential. (If it is a limited slip, I charge an additional $300 to service the limited skip, plus parts.)
I can't do one in 12 hours....can't get close. I'm not interested in how fast I can do one...never have been. Do it correctly the first time and be done with it.
Here's how it currently breaks down (approximately), for me:
2 hours----Disassemble with "gross" inspection during disassembly.
4 hours----Clean and do second "micro" inspection of pieces....make parts list while doing inspection.
4 hours----Sub-assemblies. Replace "hidden" 0-rings (machine clutch drums to accept new "hidden" O-rings). Rebuild clutch drums with new discs. Set up clearances in drums. "Rebuild" front pump assembly. Re-assemble planetary. Install new seals and 0-rings in case. Etc. Etc.
4 hours----Rebuild valve body. (Need to be left completely alone, without interruptions to be able to do one in this amount of time.) I ultrasonically clean every single tiny piece....not spray off the outside and blow it clean.
6 hours----Re-assemble and set-up clearances.
Your customers are getting a real good deal at that rate- I hope they truly appreciate that.
regards
Fred
02-26-2015, 04:17 PM
#20
Rennlist
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If you're following and reading this thread, do some math, to really understand what "value" is.
The "flat price" rebuilders throw in a gasket set, a set of "offshore" clutches, sand the "hot spots" off of the steel clutch discs, and charge $2500. The parts cost them about $400.00.
They make $2100. You get....well, something that will not leak and last for awhile. Perfect, if you are only planning on driving the car less than 20,000 miles or if you have a used car lot and are trying to sell one of these vehicles.
I charge $1250.00 labor....and then itemize the parts. That leaves me with $1250 worth of parts to put inside. I can use genuine Mercedes clutches and pieces that will last for 150,000 miles. I can install new steel plates, instead of grinding off the high spots, which simply reduces the "surface area" of the clutch packs. I can do some of the updates that occurred during the lifespan of these transmissions.....and still compete with their prices.
And occasionally, I get to rebuild one that the owner got it to me before the internal parts got really bad, from driving it into the ground. And I can "compete" with their $2500 "flat price call it a rebuild, but it really isn't" transmissions.
However, most of the time, additional parts (like brake bands) need to be replaced to get any sort of a quality rebuild. Is there "room" in that $1250 worth of parts for me to add in a $400+ B2 brake band? Not usually.
Here's the reality.....$1250 worth of parts is going to give you a better end result than $400 worth of parts.....every single time!
I stock both high quality "non genuine Mercedes" clutches and brake bands plus Genuine Mercedes pieces. If a customer comes in (or ships me a transmission) and tells me that he needs it to last for another 150,00 miles, I know what to do. If the customer tells me that he's never going to drive his car another 20,000 miles and is mostly concerned about it leaking fluid, I know what he needs.
I build "exchange" transmissions, for the people that don't have the "down time" to send me their transmissions and just want a replacement. I use using both high quality non Mercedes pieces and genuine Mercedes pieces. Those transmission have different costs. I charge different amounts for them. They all have had the differentials service. They all have new differential seals and O-rings.
These are "real" rebuilt transmissions!
The point is, that the cost of these transmissions is different....because of the different quality of internal pieces.
In the end, the real value in any job that a shop does is what one receives for the money they pay. If someone thinks that the $400 worth of parts into the $2500 rebuilt transmissions is a good value, well, that's what the "flat price" rebuilders are hoping for.
With me, you get what you paid for.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
02-26-2015, 04:54 PM
#21
Racer
Thread Starter
03-01-2015, 08:58 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Greg sent a pm. I could remove the trans. and send it but would feel better if I sent car that way you could test run it after the rebuild thus alleviating any DIY issue from an incompetent install by me of your rebuild.
Thanks,
Lon
Thanks,
Lon