Arahant

Hi Guys,

Right now im in the position of wanting to get into regular track useage.. I'm fairly new to the hobby, but I know I enjoy it and I have the spare time to do it on a regular basis when there isn't snow on the ground.

Here is my problem.. I have a 1986 951, its in fairly good condition... perhaps not as good as I thought when I first bought it but the interior is very good probably 9/10 with carpets being 10/10...

It has a little over 70,000 KM's which is like 43,000 miles... the paint isn't very faded although it has alot of pain chips, so the car needs to be touched up or possible repainted..

What I'm wondering is if I should be upgrading this car and using it on the track, or if I should keep it as kindov a "collector" car, and buy a much cheaper higher mileage 951 for the track, possible even one thats already a track car and has taken a huge hit on depreciation, anyone who has been been into this for awhile knows what I'm talking about with regards to that.

I know 944/951's arn't hugely collectable ATM like alot of other porsches, but I think some people would agree that they are atleast starting to.. and if I were to hold onto it for 5-10 years it could be worth decent money while I also get to enjoy driving it occasionally..

Or do you guys think they won't appreciate enough to make it worth my while to buy another whole car for track use? Let me know your opinions!

mdj577

Pictures are required. A few exterior, interior, engine compartment and if you can, a couple underneath. Also, how is it mechanically? Have you religiously kept up with maintainence? How often do you drive it?

Cole

I wouldn't tear up a low mileage clean car.

Plenty of cars that are already ratty out there to use for a track car.

Van

It's also worthwhile to do some soul searching to see what you want to get out of it... Do you just plan on doing DEs, or do you want to compete in 944 Cup racing? I.e. how far do you want to take your "track prep" and/or do you have to keep it within certain rules?

Typically it'll take $45k to build a 951 into a good track car, and then it will be worth $15k.

Jeff951NJ

Yup exacly what Van said. Also need to think about how much $$$ you are able the budget per year. Take that and double it cause that's probably what you will actually spend.

mrgreenjeans

From what I observe, there are an awful lot of used track cars, ratty crap wagons sitting under backyard trees, and 1500 dollar hulks on Craigslist from which to begin the process.

So, why does everyone wish to tear into their low mile, still somewhat original paint, used but not abused 944s and 951s on a quest to make a track car ?

At the worst, you are spending a few thousand more and adding another car to the garage, but you are also allowing the car you already own to live. Not such a bad tradeoff considering the volume of trolls which make perfect candidates for stripping and lightening.

As many folks find out soon enough, the charge/debit card can't get swiped enough, and the checks keep getting written to feed the passion. After a year or two..... sometimes a few months even, the passion and the checking account are drained and you have a half finished, slightly pranged 944, with no more merit to it than yesterday's parakeet cage liner.

Then what ?

Hopefully this isn't the case for you, but for many it's a reality. And another car or two bite the dust.

Out of the 45,000 or so that made it to America, the number keeps getting smaller every day ~

Arahant

Awesome thanks for replies so far everyone's opinions are more or less what i was hoping for.

I was already leaning heavily towards keeping the car more or less stock(maby a few mods that I could reverse easily) and buying another car for track.. I'm going to be talking to someone who has a 951 track car today.. if there is anyone else there who has a track car they are looking to sell and its located in Ontario, let me know.

Here are pics of the car when I bought it last fall, its in more or less the same condition: http://imgur.com/a/lOw6i#0

I havn't had it long so I can't say that I know its been maintained religiously, it was put away for the winter, I use synthetic oil in it which i changed before putting it away and is due for another change now... for the most part what I gathered from the previous owner(car was a 1 owner car before I bought it) was that he hadn't done much to it, and hadn't replaced much over the years for maintenance... but he kept it in good condition in a garage which I believe as the paint isn't very faded although it suffers from quite a few rock chips.

I'v replaced a master cylinder and headers and there was new/used tires put on it to certify it when I bought it.

So yeah, there are definately better more pristine 951's out there but I think this is easily an 8.5, maby a 9 overall in terms of condition... maby a 9 after I sort out the paint.

As to what I want from racing.. honestly I'm not to old(late 20's) and I havn't had much time on the track, but I'v been out and enjoy it immensely and have spare time that I need to fill with hobbies, and I do have the financial means to do it aswell within reason. So basically I don't intend to do professional racing, or even serious amateur racing... at least not for a few years... I just want to jump in with both feet and learn as best as I can.. I'd like to be doing a track day atleast once a week, maby 6 times a month..

I'm interested in autocross and time attack type events..

So I'm sure there will be some rules and regulations but I expect that they won't be very strict for the track useage I have in mind.. and its quite likely that I will atleast try and make the car street legal, but having it as street legal isn't a deal breaker as I am going to be getting a tow package put on my cayenne and will be able to tow it to the track. But i'd prefer to be able to drive it on the street now-and-then, and to the events.

What someone said about sinking 45k into a car then it only be worth 15k is exactly what I meant in my first post... I remember seeing an ad for someones car on here that sold not that long ago... where he claimed it was almost 100k sunk into the car... and I think it sold for around 20k or something.. to bad I only found that ad recently after it had already sold or I would have JUMPED on it.

I would much rather buy a track car that has taken the huge depreciation hit already then do it myself, even though there is something nice with doing it yourself, and feeling the car change as you add stuff bit by bit, allows you to understand your car better and feel more intimate to you.. but as great as that is I can't justify the extra cost if I can avoid it.

I don't think the last post before this one really pertains to me but I understand where your coming from.. I don't think my original post expressed a strong desire to "tear into" my low mileage 951.. I'd rather keep it as a collector car... but what do people think about the potential collectability for these cars in the near future?(ie 5-10 years).. I probably won't sell it regardless but I do like the idea of having a few cars that could go up in value comparable or better to my real life investments in stocks/bonds etc..

Keep the opinions coming guys, I appreciate the insight!

TurnerJ

Car looks to be in the top 10% condition wise. All the trim looks perfect and everything else looks well taken care of. It would be too nice for me to make a track car.

grenadiers

One thing to think about as well, is the age of your car. Most likely it has the original head gasket, seals, hoses, rubber-centered clutch disk, etc., and therefore, a few track days might reveal a few 'weaknesses' in said arrangement. I have a low-mileage, mint '89 951, and did one track day with it. How could one not want to try out all the M030 goodies, eh? That last one was for you~!

The 'stock' setup with my car from the factory was amazing, nice balance for example. But, I probably won't do it again, as there's nary a leak anywhere. And, I have two other track cars as well. So, seeing that you are a bit higher up the food chain, Cayenne and all, you might want to consider a second car.

If blazing speed isn't a requirement, check out the used 944 Spec market, or other 944s on Craigslist that have been converted to track use. Once a 2.5L engine has been 'gone through', it's a very reliable track day performer. And, if you want to build your own, it's not hard, just takes time and research. Can be fun too!

Cole

Turbo didn't have a rubber centered clutch. Only the NA cars.

harveyf

Coming in a little late but:

Once you commit $400 to entry fees and travel and gas, etc. a weekend DE event is not cheap. And it totally sucks when your car dies in the first session. Well used 951's are not going to be reliable without a lot of work and money. I hate to say it on a 944 forum but I would buy someone elses Spec Miata (gets you a cage and all the safety stuff) and go out and have a good time. If you really like it (or if you don't), the Miata can be sold and you can pursue your dream. A decent Spec Miata can be had for $10K.

odurandina

"I want a track car..... "

what's your budget to get started? be honest.

what's your annual budget ever after? be honest.

how long do you plan to be in this before you move on to other stuff? be honest.

to do things the way you'll end up wanting to do them - it's very nearly a rich man's game.

SpeedyC2

My S2 was in nice shape when I bought it, but not nearly as nice as this car. The body had some dents/dings, rough paint in spots, the interior was clean but the carpet had been replaced with a cheap material, etc. Mechanically it was very sound, however.

I do a couple of DE's a year with my car, and realistically this is all I will ever do. I have spend a fair amount of money on the car, primarily in beefing it up mechanically to survive even the occasional track use it sees, and it has worked well and reliably on track for me for over 4-1/2 years now. It has never quit on my on track or made me miss track time so far. (The sound you hear is me knocking on wood!) My ultimate goal is to someday redo the interior with nice materials and re-paint the exterior to create a Club Sport clone. I'm not going to worry about keeping it OEM, or building to a Spec, but I do use quality parts and try to do things the right way.

I myself would not track as nice a car as you have with such low mileage(they are rapidly becoming rare things). As a weekend driver/show car, the 951 may not increase in value over the years as much as stock investments, but it likely won't drop in value.

I don't ever expect to see any of the money back on the S2, I'm just enjoying the heck out owning and driving it. But it is certainly not an investment car!

crooster

A track car really needs to be in top notch mechanical shape, IMO. My 951 has had a long life as a track rat and has the patina to go with it. It's getting hard to find cosmetically clean, nice original cars.

L Cubed

I asked a similar question earlier this year as I contemplated the costs (money & time) of converting a decent street car into a track friendly car for learning; if you haven't seen it here is the link Track Car Dilemma: Buy vs Build

Like you have already received here that thread had a ton of great advice. I ended up keeping my S2 and am s l o w l y adding parts to it to allow it to better survive track days. I really want something I can go just tear up the track with but don't have a truck/trailer so I have to compromise on a street/track setup which is ok but it would be nice to be able to go full-out race car.

What I have found is that I can either leave my car alone and spend money on driving (and the consumables required) or I can work on the car and buy the parts I want to upgrade, it's too costly for me to do both. So if you want to do a lot more driving/racing than wrenching/tinkering the comment of getting a well sorted spec car like Spec Miata, Spec 944, Spec E30, etc. is probably a good idea. Looking back I would have liked to do this but it was hard for me because I love building cars as well and wanted to build my track car as much as I wanted to drive it. Then again maybe you could rent a car for a couple track days and see if that suits your fancy for getting to drive as often as you want and not have to worry about the wrenching or mechanical prep of the car. I haven't done this but thinking about it now it doesn't sound like a bad way to get started in some track driving if it's available to you.