Thoughts on the new electric Macan?
01-26-2024 | 03:36 PM
#16
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RE: “Because between Tesla, the South Koreans (who are just killing it in the EV space), Lucid, Rivian and BMW, anything above 100k better have extraordinary range or otherwise have flight capabilities and be able to take off like a helicopter.”
If one looks at global EV sales, it’s the Chinese that are “killing it”. At the moment, America is still a smaller and questionable market for EV sales. Sure,EV sales numbers in the US are still continuing to grow, but the rate of growth has dramatically slowed. Compounding the slower growth in the US, has been the media hammering EV’s, from CR’s declaration that EV’s are 79% less reliable than ICE cars, to higher repair costs, to higher insurance, to range anxiety, to EV’s not being able to charge in extreme cold. Etc. Then, there’s the reality that most EV manufacturers aren’t introducing cheaper (in the low $30K) EV’s….all/most are still focused on a more affluent demographic.
As far as the media’s infatuation with range anxiety….every one of the EV owners I know (which is quite a few), including myself, charges at home, so no charging issues from day to day. Those that take their EV’s on longer trips, most that i know, avoid range anxiety by driving their ICE car. Most of us have, at least 2 or more cars. I’ve been on several long trips in my EV - twice to Chicago (1,600 mile round trip) and once to Boston - and i had no issues. However, if I was to visit the hills of W. Virginia, or visit any rural areas of the US, I would seriously reconsider driving my EV. Lot of states are not ready for primetime EV experience.
If one looks at global EV sales, it’s the Chinese that are “killing it”. At the moment, America is still a smaller and questionable market for EV sales. Sure,EV sales numbers in the US are still continuing to grow, but the rate of growth has dramatically slowed. Compounding the slower growth in the US, has been the media hammering EV’s, from CR’s declaration that EV’s are 79% less reliable than ICE cars, to higher repair costs, to higher insurance, to range anxiety, to EV’s not being able to charge in extreme cold. Etc. Then, there’s the reality that most EV manufacturers aren’t introducing cheaper (in the low $30K) EV’s….all/most are still focused on a more affluent demographic.
As far as the media’s infatuation with range anxiety….every one of the EV owners I know (which is quite a few), including myself, charges at home, so no charging issues from day to day. Those that take their EV’s on longer trips, most that i know, avoid range anxiety by driving their ICE car. Most of us have, at least 2 or more cars. I’ve been on several long trips in my EV - twice to Chicago (1,600 mile round trip) and once to Boston - and i had no issues. However, if I was to visit the hills of W. Virginia, or visit any rural areas of the US, I would seriously reconsider driving my EV. Lot of states are not ready for primetime EV experience.
Rather, its the design and production of EVs. From the Ioniq 5 and 6, EV6, GV60, the new EV9, the accolades just keep coming for the South Koreans.
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AlexCeres (01-27-2024)
01-26-2024 | 03:48 PM
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I like it. I'm going to bet it won't drive or feel as nice as a taycan, assuming the Macan is somewhat close to chassis feel of the current generation Macan (which we own). or maybe they surprise me with the new PPE chassis.
But even my wife who is NOT a car person said when driving the taycan: feels more premium, solid, quiet, better built compared to her macan. I mean, compare driving feel of a Panamera to a Cayenne. The Panamera feels MUCH more porsche/911-like than the Cayenne.
Wife wants one tho.
4 spec for her: $92k
Turbo spec: $112k
2024 S spec: $85k
(above are similar options selected similar to her current S)
I think her 2020 was $76k?
My CT4 was $118k minus the 8500 in government cheese. and a 50% 2 year depreciation rate.
But even my wife who is NOT a car person said when driving the taycan: feels more premium, solid, quiet, better built compared to her macan. I mean, compare driving feel of a Panamera to a Cayenne. The Panamera feels MUCH more porsche/911-like than the Cayenne.
Wife wants one tho.
4 spec for her: $92k
Turbo spec: $112k
2024 S spec: $85k
(above are similar options selected similar to her current S)
I think her 2020 was $76k?
My CT4 was $118k minus the 8500 in government cheese. and a 50% 2 year depreciation rate.
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AlexCeres (01-27-2024)
01-26-2024 | 04:02 PM
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You are correct. My "heart" is trying to come up with all kinds of reasons to go with a post-refresh Taycan rather than Macan Turbo, even though that's illogical. I just like how it looks much more and don't want to miss out on anything, LOL. I will also look at other brands, of course, but nothing seems to hit the same sweet spot of sporty luxury for a daily/errand car.
01-26-2024 | 04:03 PM
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What I meant by "killing it" is not so much demand (or consumption) of EVs.
Rather, its the design and production of EVs. From the Ioniq 5 and 6, EV6, GV60, the new EV9, the accolades just keep coming for the South Koreans.
Rather, its the design and production of EVs. From the Ioniq 5 and 6, EV6, GV60, the new EV9, the accolades just keep coming for the South Koreans.
What’s interesting is the (apparent) disconnect between the automotive journalists that write and hand out all these award, and the reality of customer satisfaction, including reliability. Don’t get me wrong, the Korean made/designed EV’s are good….but in several reliability surveys…several of the Korean made EV’s were listed as “worse than average” for EV’s. Before I bought my EV, I visited the forums of two Korean brands, the Ionic 5 and EV6, to see what the experiences were from actual owners. Some serious issues complaints surfaced from owners, for both cars…and there are YouTube videos covering some of the issues.
My point being - Not trying to dump on the Korean cars. Just saying that on many of the issues that buyers care about, they’re not leaders. As far as the media and their awards…always lived by the philosophy to, “follow the money”. Big / established car companies advertise, and a lot of money goes to these media outlets…and if a particular media outlet pans, or gives a car anything less than a glowing recommendation, you can bet that advertising dollars will drop. Since Chinese owned, designed and made EV’s don’t come to the US, you aren’t likely to see any mention in the US media. But they are selling well in Europe - a bigger EV market than the US, at the moment.
One huge advantage of the Chinese cars sold in Europe, is lower cost. The average price of a Chinese EV sold in Europe is $33k…and that will get you a 250-300hp car. Compare that to the base I5, which starts at around $43k in the US, with 168 HP.
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 01-26-2024 at 04:53 PM.
01-26-2024 | 04:28 PM
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Looking at the other luxury EVs in the market, it's still hard to see anything that I like better than the Taycan.
Lucid: Great range, but odd styling, uncertain future and servicing, weird interior (who on earth thought the two-tone interior with light upholstery in the rear seats and dark in the front was a good idea?!, or that they should build a car without CarPlay or Android Auto?).
Tesla: The Model S has great range, but even in refreshed form has a cheap interior and horrible usability with the complex sub-menus in the touch screen. Thankfully the idiotic yoke can now be changed.
Mercedes EQS, EQE, etc: Amorphous blob styling, garish interior.
BMW: Massively overcomplicated interior, hideous styling on the i7 and iX, i5 is underwhelming for a brand new EV, just an electric five series, i4 is OK.
Rivian: Just a very different proposition from a Taycan - if you need a big EV SUV, the R1S is probably the one to get, but unlikely to appeal to the same buyer as a Taycan.
Genesis: Nothing available yet that is a real luxury dedicated EV offering (I don't think the electrified G80 counts, the GV60 is just an Ioniq / EV6 with a tacky / blingy interior, and the GV70 is an adaptation of an ICE vehicle).
Out of all of these vehicles / brands, there is nothing that I would be excited to take instead of the Taycan. Yes, it would be good to have a bit more range and interior space, so perhaps the upcoming Audi A6 Avant e-tron could be the one, if we even get it in Canada.
Lucid: Great range, but odd styling, uncertain future and servicing, weird interior (who on earth thought the two-tone interior with light upholstery in the rear seats and dark in the front was a good idea?!, or that they should build a car without CarPlay or Android Auto?).
Tesla: The Model S has great range, but even in refreshed form has a cheap interior and horrible usability with the complex sub-menus in the touch screen. Thankfully the idiotic yoke can now be changed.
Mercedes EQS, EQE, etc: Amorphous blob styling, garish interior.
BMW: Massively overcomplicated interior, hideous styling on the i7 and iX, i5 is underwhelming for a brand new EV, just an electric five series, i4 is OK.
Rivian: Just a very different proposition from a Taycan - if you need a big EV SUV, the R1S is probably the one to get, but unlikely to appeal to the same buyer as a Taycan.
Genesis: Nothing available yet that is a real luxury dedicated EV offering (I don't think the electrified G80 counts, the GV60 is just an Ioniq / EV6 with a tacky / blingy interior, and the GV70 is an adaptation of an ICE vehicle).
Out of all of these vehicles / brands, there is nothing that I would be excited to take instead of the Taycan. Yes, it would be good to have a bit more range and interior space, so perhaps the upcoming Audi A6 Avant e-tron could be the one, if we even get it in Canada.
It just goes to show how overpriced the entire Taycan line was.
Porsche could get away with it 3-4 years ago when the Taycan was really one of maybe 2 or 3 cars in the luxury EV market.
Yes, the Taycan, in whatever guise, probably drives better than 90% of all the cars out there (ICE included), but most people who are buying an EV don't really care about driving dynamics. They care about getting from Point A to B and back to A in the most painless and effortless way possible.
If Porsche intends to introduce another EV that retails for a median price of ~150k retail after the sunset of the current generation Taycan, they better come up with something good. Because between Tesla, the South Koreans (who are just killing it in the EV space), Lucid, Rivian and BMW, anything above 100k better have extraordinary range or otherwise have flight capabilities and be able to take off like a helicopter.
Porsche could get away with it 3-4 years ago when the Taycan was really one of maybe 2 or 3 cars in the luxury EV market.
Yes, the Taycan, in whatever guise, probably drives better than 90% of all the cars out there (ICE included), but most people who are buying an EV don't really care about driving dynamics. They care about getting from Point A to B and back to A in the most painless and effortless way possible.
If Porsche intends to introduce another EV that retails for a median price of ~150k retail after the sunset of the current generation Taycan, they better come up with something good. Because between Tesla, the South Koreans (who are just killing it in the EV space), Lucid, Rivian and BMW, anything above 100k better have extraordinary range or otherwise have flight capabilities and be able to take off like a helicopter.
01-26-2024 | 06:35 PM
#21
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What’s interesting is the (apparent) disconnect between the automotive journalists that write and hand out all these award, and the reality of customer satisfaction, including reliability. Don’t get me wrong, the Korean made/designed EV’s are good….but in several reliability surveys…several of the Korean made EV’s were listed as “worse than average” for EV’s. Before I bought my EV, I visited the forums of two Korean brands, the Ionic 5 and EV6, to see what the experiences were from actual owners. Some serious issues complaints surfaced from owners, for both cars…and there are YouTube videos covering some of the issues.
My point being - Not trying to dump on the Korean cars. Just saying that on many of the issues that buyers care about, they’re not leaders. As far as the media and their awards…always lived by the philosophy to, “follow the money”. Big / established car companies advertise, and a lot of money goes to these media outlets…and if a particular media outlet pans, or gives a car anything less than a glowing recommendation, you can bet that advertising dollars will drop. Since Chinese owned, designed and made EV’s don’t come to the US, you aren’t likely to see any mention in the US media. But they are selling well in Europe - a bigger EV market than the US, at the moment.
One huge advantage of the Chinese cars sold in Europe, is lower cost. The average price of a Chinese EV sold in Europe is $33k…and that will get you a 250-300hp car. Compare that to the base I5, which starts at around $43k in the US, with 168 HP.
My point being - Not trying to dump on the Korean cars. Just saying that on many of the issues that buyers care about, they’re not leaders. As far as the media and their awards…always lived by the philosophy to, “follow the money”. Big / established car companies advertise, and a lot of money goes to these media outlets…and if a particular media outlet pans, or gives a car anything less than a glowing recommendation, you can bet that advertising dollars will drop. Since Chinese owned, designed and made EV’s don’t come to the US, you aren’t likely to see any mention in the US media. But they are selling well in Europe - a bigger EV market than the US, at the moment.
One huge advantage of the Chinese cars sold in Europe, is lower cost. The average price of a Chinese EV sold in Europe is $33k…and that will get you a 250-300hp car. Compare that to the base I5, which starts at around $43k in the US, with 168 HP.
Visit any Rivian, Lucid or BWMi forum, and there are gripes galore. Heck, this is even true for ICE cars.
I have an EV6, and it's been nothing but trouble free.
Anecdotal? Yes, of course. But it is one data point.
I will say, there are two vehicles that I will avoid like the plague. VinFast and BYD. One has to learn how to build a car, before you can build an EV. You simply cannot skip that intermediate step.
01-26-2024 | 07:17 PM
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Agree, but not all complaints are equal.
EV6 owner reliability poll (> 6 month of ownership):
https://www.kiaevforums.com/threads/...ev6-been.7845/
56% reported no problems. 11% reported “major issues”…7% reporting “big problems” requiring a service call….with the rest somewhere in the middle. It’s the 11% that I would worry about.
All of my issues with my EV have been software glitches that were resolved with a re-boot, or lock/unlocking the car. 100% of issues have been software related. I’ve owned my EV 2 years this March.
While my 3 yo 992 has had no problems, except one, it’s one that really annoys the Hell out of me: rattles. That issue hasn’t impacted my use of the car, but has impacted my enjoyment of the car, As I said, not all issues are equal.
I have no data on the reliability of Chinese brands, but suspect like other EV brands, they have their own issues.
I have an EV6, and it's been nothing but trouble free.
EV6 owner reliability poll (> 6 month of ownership):
https://www.kiaevforums.com/threads/...ev6-been.7845/
56% reported no problems. 11% reported “major issues”…7% reporting “big problems” requiring a service call….with the rest somewhere in the middle. It’s the 11% that I would worry about.
All of my issues with my EV have been software glitches that were resolved with a re-boot, or lock/unlocking the car. 100% of issues have been software related. I’ve owned my EV 2 years this March.
While my 3 yo 992 has had no problems, except one, it’s one that really annoys the Hell out of me: rattles. That issue hasn’t impacted my use of the car, but has impacted my enjoyment of the car, As I said, not all issues are equal.
I will say, there are two vehicles that I will avoid like the plague. VinFast and BYD. One has to learn how to build a car, before you can build an EV. You simply cannot skip that intermediate step.
Last edited by CodyBigdog; 01-26-2024 at 09:52 PM.
01-26-2024 | 07:19 PM
#23
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my thoughts are clear
watched many detailed review videos
Local dealer says I have my allocation - early summer 2024 - I'm doing Atlanta Delivery - will make a road trip out of it w/Wife
2020 Taycan Turbo will be turned in for a 2024/2025 Macan Turbo…
90% "all in" on this plan - wite and I want something you crawl into rather than fall into for an all EV DD…
I'm excited.
watched many detailed review videos
Local dealer says I have my allocation - early summer 2024 - I'm doing Atlanta Delivery - will make a road trip out of it w/Wife
2020 Taycan Turbo will be turned in for a 2024/2025 Macan Turbo…
90% "all in" on this plan - wite and I want something you crawl into rather than fall into for an all EV DD…
I'm excited.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 01-26-2024 at 07:22 PM.
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01-26-2024 | 10:11 PM
#24
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my thoughts are clear
watched many detailed review videos
Local dealer says I have my allocation - early summer 2024 - I'm doing Atlanta Delivery - will make a road trip out of it w/Wife
2020 Taycan Turbo will be turned in for a 2024/2025 Macan Turbo…
90% "all in" on this plan - wite and I want something you crawl into rather than fall into for an all EV DD…
I'm excited.
watched many detailed review videos
Local dealer says I have my allocation - early summer 2024 - I'm doing Atlanta Delivery - will make a road trip out of it w/Wife
2020 Taycan Turbo will be turned in for a 2024/2025 Macan Turbo…
90% "all in" on this plan - wite and I want something you crawl into rather than fall into for an all EV DD…
I'm excited.
01-26-2024 | 10:13 PM
#25
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my dealer did not say "no"…having bought cars from them since 2011 they have given me no reason to doubt them - but there is a first time for everything.
we'll see how this plays out - but Macan is a "high volume" product and not exactly "limited" like 911's or other more "rare" Porsche's - I'm pretty sure anyone who wants one can get one.
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AlexCeres (01-27-2024)
01-26-2024 | 10:56 PM
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I'm all in on the Macan. I'll most likely get the 4 instead of the Turbo next year because I just bought a Taycan GTS ST late last year (for tax purposes). The color choices are really lacking so I'll go with good old white. One thing that I really like is that the actual range was over 320 miles from 100% to 1% from a YouTube review which is great.
01-27-2024 | 08:16 AM
#27
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Minus;
The 4 is 633 lbs more than my Taycan, accounting for AWD that's still a porky 476 lbs extra
Looks like a bullfrog, flares in the bumper around the headlights too pronounced
Hockey stick door warts again
Prefer conventional SUV roofline
No sweet kickdown sounds from its one speed
Rusty brake discs
Plus;
AR HUD
96 kWh usable
Nice looking standard wheels
Can tow
The 4 is 633 lbs more than my Taycan, accounting for AWD that's still a porky 476 lbs extra
Looks like a bullfrog, flares in the bumper around the headlights too pronounced
Hockey stick door warts again
Prefer conventional SUV roofline
No sweet kickdown sounds from its one speed
Rusty brake discs
Plus;
AR HUD
96 kWh usable
Nice looking standard wheels
Can tow
01-27-2024 | 02:00 PM
#30
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It's not the same chassis - a completely new platform. It's longer with a longer wheelbase and more interior space, wider, less tall and much nicer on the inside. Also MUCH faster. Gasoline Macan is a very basic vehicle in comparison. They should have just changed the name - that's a marketing fail.
But I was not comparing it to the old Macan (which I find very disappointing with its laggy and thrashy drivetrain and brittle handling) but to the Taycan Cross Turismo Turbo, which is also electric, has nearly the same specs and dimensions, a similar-looking interior, and is $80K Canadian or $60K US more expensive for same spec. It made me reconsider my Taycan order, frankly.
But I was not comparing it to the old Macan (which I find very disappointing with its laggy and thrashy drivetrain and brittle handling) but to the Taycan Cross Turismo Turbo, which is also electric, has nearly the same specs and dimensions, a similar-looking interior, and is $80K Canadian or $60K US more expensive for same spec. It made me reconsider my Taycan order, frankly.
I wouldn't say it's going to be much nicer inside though as it's a very similar interior for layout and style and newer doesn't mean better. For example the 992 interior was a downgrade IMO on quality vs a 991.2.