https://europe.autonews.com/automake...t-direct-rival

Three main points,
"Porsche's push into full-electric cars is not an effort to challenge Tesla's dominance in the sector. That is because the Volkswagen Group subsidiary says the U.S. EV maker's aspiration is to be a volume producer, something that is not in the premium German brand's plans. "

"Tesla CEO Elon Musk has attempted to beat the Porsche Taycan electric sedan's Nurburgring lap time record with the Model S. Is Tesla a rival?
Although people like to play us off against each other, we do not consider Tesla to be a direct rival. With the Model 3, it's clear that they are more aggressively targeting the volume segment."

"How far ahead is Tesla in terms of its battery technology?
Tesla employs round cells, a slightly different chemistry and another cooling concept, all of which have their specific advantages and disadvantages. In our opinion the kind of high battery capacities you might find installed in a Model S are not ideal in terms of sustainability. We believe in smaller, lighter and therefore less expensive batteries that can be recharged more quickly. It's not our aspiration to be the leader in electric range."

 

They better get into the range business. If a Taycan can only go 160 kms (100 miles) in -30F while keeping the car interior warm, they won't be selling many cars in the midwest or upper east coast, I don't care how fast you can recharge them compared to a Tesla.

 

If true, how fast was that driver going?

Cause, based off what we know. It's the Tesla that will under perform in cold weather. This has been a big complaint about them, while many Taycan's perform around EPA or better.

Plus, -30 degrees is very cold anywhere (albeit maybe less of a challenge for an ICE vehicle), and is neither a normal or regular temperature.

 

Come on, you aren't even trying. You forgot to add "....while towing 2,000 pounds, driving up a steep hill, in the snow against 50 MPH headwinds"

The Tesla nuts will be disappointed in your lame effort at concern trolling.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/co...ies-2019-02-07



With that level of drop, can't imagine what -30 looks like.

t least you can still open the doors of a Porsche. LOL.

 

This is really overblown for the early adopters of the taycan. It’ll be more important for the Macan.

I think the Porsche statement is both true and kinda a cop out. Tesla is focused on mass producing much cheaper vehicles. They may eventually get around to a halo car, but that seems pretty backburner at the moment. They really are in a different market with different incentives. It’s going to be difficult to compete with Porsche on Porsche’s niche demographic. That’d require a different production, infrastructure and support focus.

Tesla competing with Porsche head on is a pretty terrible distraction from making the most money and impact. Elon and the fan bois seem to want to go to war against the world instead of making a **** ton of money on Tesla’s strengths. Destroying BMW, humiliating Audi, bankrupting GM are all within grasp and very profitable. Going up market is just silly.

 

I'm a bit suspicious about all of these EPA ratings and for my purposes am more concerned about how far the car will go on a charge under real use conditions. I had a call from a Tesla rep last week after I enquired about leasing a Model 3 (they don't lease that model).

The conversation changed to the question of real world range. So Tesla claims 500 km for the Model S LR. So, is that from the max recommended 80% SOC to the min recommended SOC of 20% or from 100% to zero % ? He says its from 100% to zero. So, right away, you are dealing with 60% of 500 kms (if you want to be kind to your battery) or 300 KMs.

Now what about the winter driving thing? He says "If you want me to be honest with you, you lose about 40% in a typical Canadian winter with the heater on all of the time". So, 60% of 300KMs is about 180 kms left (about 110 miles). So, with a Tesla, for me, I can make do if I don't drive more than 100 miles a day (which I don't).

So what about the whole fast charging thing? Has Porsche figured out how to avoid degrading the battery by using the fast charging system while going form charging station to charging station on a trip? I don't think Tesla has. If I fast charge a Tesla regularly and lose 3 - 4% capacity every year, after 5 years I may have lost 20% capacity using the supercharger. Tesla says to avoid the SCs if you can. Not great if you want to take longer distance trips. So, now I can only drive 80 miles a day in the city? Maybe better not to use the SC? .

What happens with the Taycan?

I'm totally interested in EVs and in particular a Porsche EV because of the build quality. But, the car needs to be able to do 300 - 400 miles on the highway and charge at a rate that won't degrade the battery. Until then, I think its a toy for rich people who don't care about all of this stuff. they just want to go fast until they run out. Thats my $0.02 worth.

 

in a shocking turn of events, Porsche customers care about different things. Otherwise they'd be Corvette or BMW owners. The C8 is an impressive piece of engineering. It's not for me, but that's okay. The Model S is an impressive piece of engineering ... The Regera is an impressive piece of engineering ... too poors and I'm sure Koenigsegg is deeply concerned about that.

 

I think that the guidance on use of fast chargers isn't saying "don't charge at fast chargers on long trips" but rather "don't charge at fast chargers all the time." For the use case where an owner typically Level 2 charges at home or work and then takes the occasional road trip using fast charging, significant degradation of the battery shouldn't be an issue.

 

Is that a Canadian thing? They certainly lease Model 3s in the U.S.

Typically one charges to 80-90%. Since you typically charge overnight, the only thing one needs to worry about is "can I get enough charging in to cover the next days driving". A typical commute of 20-30 miles might take an hour or two - depending on charging rate. Takes 10 seconds to plug the car in when you get home, and another 10 seconds when you are ready to leave. In my case, I only bother to charge once or maybe twice a week. Actually with the current "shelter in place" stuff going on, it is less frequent than that.

Charging to 100%, in a Tesla, is typically for when you are about to depart on a longer trip. Charging to 100% for a short period of time doesn't hurt anything, and makes the initial leg a little easier. During a road trip, the game is to drive the battery down as low as possible - yet within the range of the next high speed charging site. When charging, don't go above about 80% - because at that point the charge rate is "tapered" to avoid damaging the pack. It can sometimes take as long to go from 10-80% as it does from 80-100%! (Speaking generally here. The actual tapering curves vary considerably between manufacturers and even the specific battery pack configurations they produce.)

On some plug-ins, like my Volt, one typically charges to 100% no matter what. No way to set a max charge level - other than to use a timer. In the case of the Volt, GM left enough 'headroom' that charging to an indicated 100% won't harm the battery in any way. The thermal management is also excellent. Our Volt has almost 60,000 miles on it, and the pack has maybe 1-2% degradation since new. It should easily last the life of the car.

I think your figures are unnecessarily pessimistic. Degradation is nowhere near 3-4% a year - unless you buy a Nissan Leaf. There is a hit in winter for a number of reasons (wet/snowy roads, heater use, etc.) You might want to confer with some EV owners in your area to quantify things a bit better.

A good question. There have been so few delivered that pretty much anything you read is pure speculation. We'll all know in a few years.

If I lived in Canada, I'd look at a Model Y. Has the latest Model 3 tech plus a heat pump for more efficient heating. It is getting great reviews so far. Do you really want to subject a $200K Porsche to the snow, slush, ice, and risk some beater Toyota sliding through an intersection right in front of/into you?

 

Porsche, no substitute

 

”it shouldn’t be an issue” - says who? There have been several studies published already that show degradation with fast charging. Has Porsche beaten that problem? Whe;you write, shouldn’t be, is that your opinion, or is Porsche saying that it won’t be in its materials?

 

it’s a car, not a monument, so yes, I would drive I year round. If you wouldn’t, you just make my point that it’s really just a rich guy’s toy. And before you say “wait, if I drive it in the winter and put lots of miles on it, it will depreciate it faster” - I’ll tell you why you don’t want to own this car, but rather lease it: if a 911 on a 36 month lease has a 59% residual value, this car after 3 years will be worth 40%. Why? Because at the rate technology is advancing in EV development, there will be a better mousetrap from a Porsche in 3 years for the same price. So, in 3 or 4 years when a new Taycan can go twice the distance for the same price, what’s the value of my 3 or 4 year old car? So, he’ll yes, I’m driving it year round. I don’t see guys parking Panameras, Cayennes or Macao’s in the winter. What would make this car different?

 

Choices are good. Frankly 911s, Panameras, Cayennes, Macans, and yes - Taycans ARE 'rich mans toys'. But EVs in general don't have to be. There are a number of good options at moderate cost - and not just from "Brand T".

I grew up in the Midwest where we got a LOT of snow in the winter. If I still lived there, I'd have a beater 4x4 just for winter time duty. (Actually, even here in California I have a beater 4WD Suburban. Funny thing is that I drive it so infrequently now, I have to drive it every now and then to keep its battery charged. Same with my old 944...)

 

.. the battery chemistry is the same as Tesla's, and there has been a fairly large study on Model S performance over the last 7 years. Fast charging regularly is a problem. Fast charging only on long trips doesn't appear to have a measurable impact over the years.

You can look at the original sources for this article: https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla...radation-data/

 

I've owned Tesla's for over 7 years - reasonable fast charging has no appreciable impact on battery longevity or capacity - it is know that fast charging exclusively will impact battery capacity - we know this from a Taxi service that exclusively fast charged their Model S as the _ONLY_ charging ever used, and they lost 20% capacity in 3 to 4 years - but they went even further in that they would fast charge multiple times a day (not just once a day)…

based on data and observation fast charging infrequently for road trips (11-20 times year) should have no appreciable effect on the battery.

I find any assertion that fast charging is a problem - without also discussing fast charging frequency to be mostly FUD and you're much more likely to lose range and capacity by driving faster than you should.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-mode...y-degradation/

link above is data showing 7% capacity loss for a Norwegian taxi service after 250,000 miles…

don't worry about the battery - and normal fast charging will have minimal impact on battery capacity - you are very likely to sell the car prior to even losing 10% capacity, which by all accounts will take over 7 years to achieve…if you plan to own the car for more than 10 years - recommend you budget a new battery cost into the equation as a fresh battery is always a good thing after 200,000 miles…