Taycan Reviews and Videos
05-14-2020, 03:53 PM
#376
Rennlist Member
yeah it’s really important that the Taycan is so quick at speeds above 70 mph…
https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-sp...132757634.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-sp...132757634.html
05-14-2020, 04:17 PM
#377
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
05-14-2020, 04:34 PM
#378
Burning Brakes
...and we were 3 for 3 on failed 3rd party fast chargers actually working when I tried - EVGo in Watsonville - fail (couldn't communicate w/car), Electrify America in San Jose - fail (billing system was down), Chargepoint in Scotts Valley - fail (charge has been in need of repair for 3 months)...
Also - where is the Chargepoint DCFC in Scotts Valley? It doesn't show up on plugshare, nor on Chargepoints web site.
05-14-2020, 04:41 PM
#379
Rennlist Member
@whiz944 I don't know why I said Scotts Valley - simple brain fart - I was all over with that car - it's this one
location_on
no where near Scotts Valley - so I'm a bad reviewer - LOL
location_on
no where near Scotts Valley - so I'm a bad reviewer - LOL
The following users liked this post:
whiz944 (05-14-2020)
05-14-2020, 04:42 PM
#380
Rennlist Member
@whiz944 the Bolt has worked at the Watsonville charger in the past - but not the recent past so I can't say it's a Taycan problem - if I get bored enough I'll go and check to see if I can get the Bolt to work.
05-14-2020, 04:52 PM
#381
Burning Brakes
@whiz944 the Bolt has worked at the Watsonville charger in the past - but not the recent past so I can't say it's a Taycan problem - if I get bored enough I'll go and check to see if I can get the Bolt to work.
05-14-2020, 06:18 PM
#382
Rennlist Member
@Dyefrog it would have to undercut a similar Panamera trim for trim - Porsche is in a bit of. hard spot - if they priced it the way it would be attractive to me - it would still be an expensive car but they would decimate their ICE offerings - I'm not sure why anyone would get a Panamera if the Taycan was 10-30k less - the two main issues for me are price-value and the fact that for such a big car the interior feels really really cramped - the wife really really didn't like the "knee" room in the front seat - there is an awkward bit of trim above the glove box that sticks out for design/visual reasons but really makes the space much smaller - a decent turbo options out into 180k pretty easily - and after living with it for 36+ hours it's just not a $180k value proposition for me personally…also the Taycan is clearly faster/quicker than other EV offerings, but in normal driving situations it's acceleration is not dramatically better than other EV's I own (or have owned) - above 70 mph+ the Taycan is clearly clearly superior - but then again above 70 mph you're flirting with felony speeding - in the normal driving range 20-70 mph it's not noticeably "better" from an acceleration point of view in normal traffic conditions - but most EV's are wicked quick so it's hard for _ANY_ vendor to be better in this space
also the german's take on charging UI is bizzare - I spent 1 or 2 hours dealing with figuring out the in-car charging controls and still didn't manage to get the car to start charging at midnight…it's by far the most un-necessarily complex charging software I've ever encountered…
and we were 3 for 3 on failed 3rd party fast chargers actually working when I tried - EVGo in Watsonville - fail (couldn't communicate w/car), Electrify America in San Jose - fail (billing system was down), Chargepoint in San JoseScotts Valley - fail (charge has been in need of repair for 3 months)
also for all the crap other EV's get - the hood panel gaps on this particular Taycan were embarrassing - the hood was clearly misaligned and the left & right panel gap between the hood & fenders varied from front to back - and the top lines were mis-aligned in the corners between the hood & fenders…you can go look for yourself on the dealer demo - fit & finish my ***…
there is a LOT to love about the Taycan - but as an total package it's come up just a bit short as a personal purchase for me personally.
it's not that the Taycan isn't better - it is in some dimensions - and it has elements that are spectacular - but I just can't get past the price - so it's a toy for those with money to spare and mostly for other-brand-EV haters
I love my GT3 and it's worth every penny and I don't own it cause I hate some other brand sports car - it quite simply is the best at what it does in a way that I can use what it's best at…the Taycan is an odd mix of expensive, really really good, and what difference does it make, and wow it's awfully tight in here for a such a big car…and German software UI design {big-heavy-sigh} there is need of improvement.
also the german's take on charging UI is bizzare - I spent 1 or 2 hours dealing with figuring out the in-car charging controls and still didn't manage to get the car to start charging at midnight…it's by far the most un-necessarily complex charging software I've ever encountered…
and we were 3 for 3 on failed 3rd party fast chargers actually working when I tried - EVGo in Watsonville - fail (couldn't communicate w/car), Electrify America in San Jose - fail (billing system was down), Chargepoint in San Jose
also for all the crap other EV's get - the hood panel gaps on this particular Taycan were embarrassing - the hood was clearly misaligned and the left & right panel gap between the hood & fenders varied from front to back - and the top lines were mis-aligned in the corners between the hood & fenders…you can go look for yourself on the dealer demo - fit & finish my ***…
there is a LOT to love about the Taycan - but as an total package it's come up just a bit short as a personal purchase for me personally.
it's not that the Taycan isn't better - it is in some dimensions - and it has elements that are spectacular - but I just can't get past the price - so it's a toy for those with money to spare and mostly for other-brand-EV haters
I love my GT3 and it's worth every penny and I don't own it cause I hate some other brand sports car - it quite simply is the best at what it does in a way that I can use what it's best at…the Taycan is an odd mix of expensive, really really good, and what difference does it make, and wow it's awfully tight in here for a such a big car…and German software UI design {big-heavy-sigh} there is need of improvement.
05-14-2020, 06:28 PM
#383
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No, because like many people here, Jason was judging the Taycan qua EV, not as an ICE car that happens to run on electricity, which is what Porsche intended.
For example, Jason recognizes that the driving capabilities of the Taycan ("The Taycan S combines the balance and throttle adjustability of a good mid-engine sports car, like the 718 Cayman, with the ability to rocket out of a corner ***-first, like the rear-engine 911 Turbo S. Dynamically, it’s nothing short of magnificent.Dynamically, it’s nothing short of magnificent.") but then roasts Porsche for not offering regen braking ("Taycan does not offer a high-regen mode. This means there is no one-pedal driving for the street.).
Why would the Taycan have regen braking? Or why would it have to have regen braking? Does the Panamera have it? No. Do we denigrate the Panamera because it doesn't have regen braking?
Again, Porsche made the Taycan to drive like an ICE car that just happens to run on electricity. A Tesla, by contrast, is an EV that happens to provide some of the characteristics of an ICE vehicle.
This would be like if we judged the Model S by the fact that it doesn't have a good engine sound, or if one complained about the Model S's numb steering. That would just miss the point.
For example, Jason recognizes that the driving capabilities of the Taycan ("The Taycan S combines the balance and throttle adjustability of a good mid-engine sports car, like the 718 Cayman, with the ability to rocket out of a corner ***-first, like the rear-engine 911 Turbo S. Dynamically, it’s nothing short of magnificent.Dynamically, it’s nothing short of magnificent.") but then roasts Porsche for not offering regen braking ("Taycan does not offer a high-regen mode. This means there is no one-pedal driving for the street.).
Why would the Taycan have regen braking? Or why would it have to have regen braking? Does the Panamera have it? No. Do we denigrate the Panamera because it doesn't have regen braking?
Again, Porsche made the Taycan to drive like an ICE car that just happens to run on electricity. A Tesla, by contrast, is an EV that happens to provide some of the characteristics of an ICE vehicle.
This would be like if we judged the Model S by the fact that it doesn't have a good engine sound, or if one complained about the Model S's numb steering. That would just miss the point.
Thanks.
05-14-2020, 07:23 PM
#384
Rennlist Member
05-14-2020, 07:33 PM
#385
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Genuinely curious when I ask this question, please don't take it as an insult or an off the cuff remark; do you have significant seat time with an EV? I'll be more than happy to reveal why I ask this question, but I would like to hear your answer first, so as not to color your response.
Thanks.
Thanks.
I've had the opportunity to drive the following:
Chevy Bolt (2 weeks straight as my only car, and about a total of 5 weeks)
Bmw i3 (for about 1 month as my only car)
Model S (for about a 40 hours as my only car, and a total of maybe 4 days total)
Taycan Turbo (for about 12 days as my daily commuter as a loaner from my dealership)
05-14-2020, 11:33 PM
#386
Cammisa is one of the very few auto journalists that actually owns an EV, so he has excellent perspective from which to comment.
The inconsistency of the Taycan's throttle response that he mentions was demonstrated clearly in the Dragtimes video during the roll-on acceleration segment as it gets left behind by the Model S. The complexity added by the transmission is actually a disadvantage everywhere but the Autobahn. The irony is that it took that 2-speed transmission plus a temporary overboost feature in order for the Taycan to just pip the Model S in acceleration to Autobahn speeds.
From a high-performance handling dynamic point of view, though, the Taycan certainly appears to be in a class of its own in the EV world.
The inconsistency of the Taycan's throttle response that he mentions was demonstrated clearly in the Dragtimes video during the roll-on acceleration segment as it gets left behind by the Model S. The complexity added by the transmission is actually a disadvantage everywhere but the Autobahn. The irony is that it took that 2-speed transmission plus a temporary overboost feature in order for the Taycan to just pip the Model S in acceleration to Autobahn speeds.
From a high-performance handling dynamic point of view, though, the Taycan certainly appears to be in a class of its own in the EV world.
You're dramatic example of the rolling start appears misplaced. Even, the Teslarati's much hated Car and Driver article earlier this year, gave the Tesla a meager 1/10 of a second victory there in the Model S Raven's lone performance victory. Translation: The Taycan will dust any Model S for on demand acceleration and braking (due to it's cooling and gearing), coupled with it's handling, all translating onto a race track. This is why The Model S Raven was 13 secs behind the Taycan at Hockenheim.
If Tesla feels the current model's so great (once again), then they should put it back there or the Ring. Remember, the Tesla at Drag Times (unless I'm mistaken) had stickier tires and lighter wheels? And did they really have a drivers race, instead of pulling the telemetry data from the cars to compensate for slower driver starts? That's not what people do now, when they're actually testing cars vs drivers. Funny, if true. Nonetheless, I call this one a bit of an outlier, until proven otherwise.
Lastly, that article by Camissa was actually written 2-3 months ago, before the Taycan's real world range was clearly shown to be considerably above EPA estimates. It's a reprint.
05-15-2020, 09:57 AM
#387
Cammisa's real-world range observations are no less valid than any other commentator's.
05-15-2020, 11:12 AM
#388
The Dragtimes clip shows that from a dead stop, whoever hits the accelerator first is ahead until at least 120 mph. From a 20mph roll, the Taycan gets left behind initially, likely due to its transmission needing to downshift.
Cammisa's real-world range observations are no less valid than any other commentator's.
Cammisa's real-world range observations are no less valid than any other commentator's.
I'm not implying that the Taycan can match the range or efficiency of the Tesla, just that he's focused on published numbers that the evidence is pointing to a smaller discrepancy.
I don't buy the argument though that because he did the test 4 months ago, he gets a pass as Carmaven suggests. The EPA numbers have been challenged in real world applications for 6 months now.
If a reviewer did the same thing on a Tesla, I would be equally ticked. Ignoring what's true to focus on a technicality that makes the car seem worse than it really is to sell clicks looses my respect as a journalist.
The following users liked this post:
CarMaven (05-15-2020)
05-15-2020, 11:34 AM
#390
Rennlist Member
the simple fact is both cars are soooo freaking fast/quick that you need a stop watch and 1/10th of seconds to tell the difference - they are both sub 3 second machines and frankly without a side by side comparison they are the quickest car 99% of the world's driving population will EVER drive…
we are quibbling about differences of less than 1/2 a second for any measurable advantage and they both are faster than 98% of gasoline cars…
if you can handle the Tesla buy the Tesla
if you can handle the price buy the Porsche
if you make an informed decision it's unlikely you will be disappointed by either car....
the Taycan by all accounts is a spectacular car with a spectacular price and some slight statistical advantages (but none that matter with out a stop watch or head to head comparison - and even then difference are in the "error bars" of measurement).
if you want fit-finish buy the Taycan - and then make the Porsche dealer fix the minor fit&finish issues the car is delivered with - they WILL do it
if you want a traditional stealer-ship relationship buy the Taycan
if you want to track a 5,000 lbs 4 door EV sedan buy the Taycan (but only at tracks with near by fast charging)
if you want a fast charging network that actually works and you can rely on buy the Tesla
if you want the fastest charging EV on the market and can actually find a functional 800v charger at the right temperature buy the Taycan (and good luck getting the point of sale billing system to work)
if you want to save $100k buy the Tesla
if you want to drive 240 miles on a full charge buy the Taycan
if you want to push closer to 280 miles a full charge buy the Tesla
if you hate Tesla buy the Taycan
if you want in car software that you can figure out buy the Tesla
if you want Apple CarPlay buy the Taycan
if you want OTA updates frequently that actually deliver value buy the Tesla
if you want a car that will never receive a significant change via OTA updates buy the Taycan (the car will remain gloriously unchanged or modified for it's useful life)
if you want the most extreme autopilot buy the Tesla
if you want a spacious interior buy the Tesla
if you want a cavernous cargo bay buy the Tesla
if you want a more exclusive vehicle buy the Taycan
if you want brakes you can stomp on buy the Taycan
if you can handle one pedal driving and never use the brakes in normal circumstances buy the Tesla
if you want to depreciate 45% in the first 12 months buy either car
if you like mad-men CEO's buy the Tesla
if you want a super quiet and insulated cockpit buy the Taycan
if you want a silky smooth ride buy the Taycan
if you want to launch your car 0-100 mph more than 2 or 3 times in a 10 minute window buy the Taycan
if you want a glorious exhaust note you can't buy either car
if you want ceramic brakes buy the Taycan
if you want a truly nifty electronic car sound buy the Taycan
if you want the best in car audio experience buy the Taycan
if you want to save nearly $120k buy a Model 3 performance it's only about 1/2 second slower for any acceleration that matters…
if you want a serious and high quality EV from a traditional automaker buy the Taycan
if you like scrappy silicon-valley startups that are making it up as they go along buy the Tesla
if you simply must have a ring time car - buy the Taycan
if you want a car that will fit in a tight garage frankly neither car will work for you
if you want USB-C ports buy the Taycan
if you want USB-A ports buy the Tesla
if you want a night vision pedestrian targeting system buy the Taycan
if you want the finest materials in your cockpit with a certain amount of customization buy the Taycan
if you want the best looking EV 4 door sedan buy the Taycan
if you want the most practical 4 door EV sedan buy the Tesla
if you really really believe any of the actual differences between these two cars really really matter in the grand scheme of things then I suggest you re-examine your life and how you spend your free time…cause both are quite frankly amazing and as I've said before I welcome all comers in the EV world.
The Taycan is a seriously good car by a serious automotive player and we're lucky to have this debate - but it's also very limited volume (in the over all automotive market) and super expensive for what it is.
But if you want and EV & it has to be Porsche - well then the Taycan will make you very happy and there is very little not to love about it.
we are quibbling about differences of less than 1/2 a second for any measurable advantage and they both are faster than 98% of gasoline cars…
if you can handle the Tesla buy the Tesla
if you can handle the price buy the Porsche
if you make an informed decision it's unlikely you will be disappointed by either car....
the Taycan by all accounts is a spectacular car with a spectacular price and some slight statistical advantages (but none that matter with out a stop watch or head to head comparison - and even then difference are in the "error bars" of measurement).
if you want fit-finish buy the Taycan - and then make the Porsche dealer fix the minor fit&finish issues the car is delivered with - they WILL do it
if you want a traditional stealer-ship relationship buy the Taycan
if you want to track a 5,000 lbs 4 door EV sedan buy the Taycan (but only at tracks with near by fast charging)
if you want a fast charging network that actually works and you can rely on buy the Tesla
if you want the fastest charging EV on the market and can actually find a functional 800v charger at the right temperature buy the Taycan (and good luck getting the point of sale billing system to work)
if you want to save $100k buy the Tesla
if you want to drive 240 miles on a full charge buy the Taycan
if you want to push closer to 280 miles a full charge buy the Tesla
if you hate Tesla buy the Taycan
if you want in car software that you can figure out buy the Tesla
if you want Apple CarPlay buy the Taycan
if you want OTA updates frequently that actually deliver value buy the Tesla
if you want a car that will never receive a significant change via OTA updates buy the Taycan (the car will remain gloriously unchanged or modified for it's useful life)
if you want the most extreme autopilot buy the Tesla
if you want a spacious interior buy the Tesla
if you want a cavernous cargo bay buy the Tesla
if you want a more exclusive vehicle buy the Taycan
if you want brakes you can stomp on buy the Taycan
if you can handle one pedal driving and never use the brakes in normal circumstances buy the Tesla
if you want to depreciate 45% in the first 12 months buy either car
if you like mad-men CEO's buy the Tesla
if you want a super quiet and insulated cockpit buy the Taycan
if you want a silky smooth ride buy the Taycan
if you want to launch your car 0-100 mph more than 2 or 3 times in a 10 minute window buy the Taycan
if you want a glorious exhaust note you can't buy either car
if you want ceramic brakes buy the Taycan
if you want a truly nifty electronic car sound buy the Taycan
if you want the best in car audio experience buy the Taycan
if you want to save nearly $120k buy a Model 3 performance it's only about 1/2 second slower for any acceleration that matters…
if you want a serious and high quality EV from a traditional automaker buy the Taycan
if you like scrappy silicon-valley startups that are making it up as they go along buy the Tesla
if you simply must have a ring time car - buy the Taycan
if you want a car that will fit in a tight garage frankly neither car will work for you
if you want USB-C ports buy the Taycan
if you want USB-A ports buy the Tesla
if you want a night vision pedestrian targeting system buy the Taycan
if you want the finest materials in your cockpit with a certain amount of customization buy the Taycan
if you want the best looking EV 4 door sedan buy the Taycan
if you want the most practical 4 door EV sedan buy the Tesla
if you really really believe any of the actual differences between these two cars really really matter in the grand scheme of things then I suggest you re-examine your life and how you spend your free time…cause both are quite frankly amazing and as I've said before I welcome all comers in the EV world.
The Taycan is a seriously good car by a serious automotive player and we're lucky to have this debate - but it's also very limited volume (in the over all automotive market) and super expensive for what it is.
But if you want and EV & it has to be Porsche - well then the Taycan will make you very happy and there is very little not to love about it.
The following 5 users liked this post by daveo4porsche:
AlexCeres (05-15-2020),
Needsdecaf (05-15-2020),
whiz944 (05-15-2020),
Wiley Hodges (05-15-2020),
wizee (05-18-2020)