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@Ljuice10 - if I may ask - what prompted you to test drive the X?
We are in the market for a new vehicle and we plan on having another baby, so my wifes current SUV is too small for two car seats. So is my current DD. Our parents are regulars at our home and when they come, we need to take multiple vehicles which I dislike. The Model X gives us seating for 6, and runs on electric,which we can provide via our solar panels. And the amount of driving I do for work (I have a 2008 Honda accord which I bought new with 319k miles), we will save a bunch of money on gas. I'm thinking buy the Model X, drive it until I see the Taycan, then get the Taycan and give the X to my wife.
my wife _LOVES_ her X - and she loves not going to the gas station - just get in and it's full every morning - if you need any help with advise on getting a home charging setup PM me - happy to help.
order the X via my referral link and you'll get lifetime unlimited supercharging - and I'll get Tesla swag (probably a jacket)
So would that not make it more compelling for private citizens to put solar on their homes and sell any excess juice back to the grid? Our hydro is so cheap in Vancouver that it makes little economic sense “currently” . That and a Tesla powerwall and you’re rockin it.
Absolutely. And it gets better: Combine 'net metering' (allows running the meter backwards during the day) with 'time of use' rates, and you create a bit of arbitrage. Sell power to the grid when prices are higher, then set your car to charge in the middle of the night when power is cheap.
As an example, here in PG&E territory on the EV-A rate schedule, partial peak and peak rates during daytime and evening are $0.24986/kWh and $0.45389/kWh respectively. Late night rates (11 pm - 7 am weekdays) are $0.12225/kWh. I was on the no-longer-available E-6 TOU plan and with the Volt it was almost a tossup between it and EV-A. But since I bought the Model 3, it is way more advantageous to be on EV-A. So I switched it a couple weeks ago. (Note: I have 6.38kW of solar on my roof. May need to add a couple more kW to cover the Model-3...)
Absolutely. And it gets better: Combine 'net metering' (allows running the meter backwards during the day) with 'time of use' rates, and you create a bit of arbitrage. Sell power to the grid when prices are higher, then set your car to charge in the middle of the night when power is cheap.
As an example, here in PG&E territory on the EV-A rate schedule, partial peak and peak rates during daytime and evening are $0.24986/kWh and $0.45389/kWh respectively. Late night rates (11 pm - 7 am weekdays) are $0.12225/kWh. I was on the no-longer-available E-6 TOU plan and with the Volt it was almost a tossup between it and EV-A. But since I bought the Model 3, it is way more advantageous to be on EV-A. So I switched it a couple weeks ago. (Note: I have 6.38kW of solar on my roof. May need to add a couple more kW to cover the Model-3...)
We have three couples who've done solar in the past 5-10 years and every one of them said, net of cost, they're basically break even relative to PG&E even after five years. They were honest and said that they haven't seen much real savings, but they did it because they thought it was the right thing to to and they hate PG&E (who doesn't). Are any of you guys actually netting positive after the cost of the solar install?
I'm coming up on being netpostive - but it takes 10-12 years - which isn't bad for a 25-30 year item (roofing) - the other good thing is it insulates you from future price increases....after 10-11 years then your power is "free/included"
installing solar in my San Jose home changes my yearly bills from $3500-$4500 (those costs pre-date my EV usage so are "low" - basically prior to having solar it was no problem in spring/summer to break into some $600-$900 monthly bills with PG&E) - (family of 5 - 2,800 sq/ft home w/AC) to $800-$1,200 year…from 2006 $'s - and I recently expanded so my annual bill last year was $237 (taxes and cost of being attached to the grid)
the best plan and cheapest is _NOT_ to go for zero $$$ bill from PG&E - but rather install enough solar to get rid of the "most expensive" power off your bill - If you can install enough solar to cover the house during the day (peak rate time) and have enough production to keep from breaking into various PG&E "tier's" you end up limiting yourself to only paying PG&E for their cheapest electricity which is a big win. Systems that target covering just your "excess" usage can be installed for as little as $6,000-$8,000 - and will make a real difference if they start knocking off $0.42/kWh power during the day…pushing your net usage into the cheapest power PG&E delivers (and way cheaper than the cost of solar)/
The basic economics of solar in California are that solar install costs $0.25/kWh - this is calcuated by the following simple formula:
this makes it simple - if you're paying PG&E more than $0.25/kWh solar makes sense for you - figure out how many kWh you're using where you're paying more than $0.25/kWh and install only enough solar to cover that usage annually…
if you're paying PG&E less than $0.25/kWh for a majority of your usage continuing buying power from PG&E because it's cheaper than doing it yourself.
here are the actual puts/takes from my annual '17-'18 PG&E bill NEM bill with a. 7.2 kWh system running 3-4 electric car's - in that time the system produced about 12,000 kWh, and I still had usage of 8,000 kWh above my own production - meaning with out the solar I would've used about 20-22 megawatts for the year - the credits/debits worked out to a $259 bill and I got to use 8,000 kWh at night (and cloudy days) to charge my EV's - 20-22 kWh from PG&E would've been a very interesting and very large bill - I'm sure the solar system saved me money in the '17-'18 year - and it's well on it's way to doing it again this year…based on my calculations I'll be break even in about 10 years for the new system and cover all my home usage and transportation usage - if you include the fuel cost savings in that I'm no longer paying for "gas" and the electricity I'm now using is also "pre-paid" via the solar system install - I doubt I'm losing money. But it's not an immediate pay back type of system - it is "over" time. It does however make it very very cheap to live in this home - because basically I've removed a monthly bill indefinitely for the future - and the money I paid for the solar system is gone and forgotten, but my future bills will always be zero - emotionally "free" electricity if you forget about the cost of the system - I know I had to write a big check for the solar system and that same money could've been used to pay bills over time - I understand that - but for me there is an emotional satisfaction in knowing I should not see an electric bill ever again in my life as long as I live in this home - there will never be a monthly bill - and I did it for one fixed upfront payment - now I'm done.
I am scheduled to install a modest Tesla Powerwall system (2 powerwalls 28 kWh capacity - not to save money - the ROI on a powerwall is horrendous with net metering - better to sell the power at peak rate to PG&E than bank it a battery to use at night when power is cheapest) but rather as a home appliance - in the location where I'm installing it we have 6-12 power outages/year that last more than 4 hours (some as long as 18 hour or 1 1/2 days) in the winter when there are heavy storms. And the powerwall will bridge these outages no problem. The main advantages of the powerwall are as follows:
whole house back up to bridge the occasional long duration power outage - saving hassle and spoiled food - this is my main goal and being able to go on with my life during a power outage means a lot to me - the location is an HOA and they wouldn't allow a generator - and beside storing a fuel and generator onsite is a PITA - the powerwall is silent and will just "work" during outages such that the only reason I'll even know there is an outage is the notification on my phone that powerwall kicked in due to a grid outage - if it wasn't for that I wouldn't even know.
it keeps the solar online during the outage - which normally drops offline during an outage for overall grid safety - this means the batteries are only used at night and charge during the day - my normal day to day cycle should see no usage of the PG&E meter - other than net credits
it provides a measure of "pseudo-self sufficiency" - if it's moderately sunny during the day the power wall can take care of your night time usage and get recharged to full during the day - making the home basically self sufficient while stilling having the "grid" as a backup for occasional very high demand scenarios
for normal daily demands I expect my meter usage to be net positive (me producing power) and based on my historical usage my grid usage will boil down to - the solar and the powerwall combine forces to match home demand at all times - thereby keep the meter from spinning - the _ONLY_ time the meter will spin is where there is excess power being produced by the solar, or the current home demand exceeds the supply of the powerwall + solar - then the grid will be engaged to make up the short fall:
some kWh's used above and beyond what solar + pkwerwall produces - last year I would've had 15 days where my home usage exceeded solar+powerwall - the other 350 days I would've been 100% self sufficient
EV charging - the EV chargers will be on a separate circuit and not back-up by the Powerwalls - my EV's charge at off peak so buying power from PG&E to charge the EV at $0.12xx/kWh is the cheapest power solution going.
during a power outage I won't charge the EV's - if it goes long duration there are ample viable scenarios to get the cars charged
it makes no sense to install sufficient battery capacity to charge the EV's which are the highest demand item in anyone's home
I have modeled the entire EV usage for the past 2 years and it should be entirely paid for via the net day time credits once I install the powerwalls
I expect to have a $0.00 bill for the rest of my days - at a high demand household, charging EV's, and still being functional/online during outages - but I still have the security of the grid to occasionally step in and meet my very high demands when I'm using a lot of power for some reason.
the table below is an excellent example of the benefits of TOU billing in the face of net metering - even though I was a net user of power (2603 kWh annually - nearly 9 megawatts at night which is mostly charging the EV's) I have a net credit on my actual power cost - because I produce power when it's expensive and use power when it's cheap - the only reason I had any money out of pocket this year was due to taxes and utility fees that aren't allowed to be offset by solar - I look at the $259 cost for the past year as the cost of having a giant infinite supply battery for my home that I can tap when ever I need it…cheapest battery on the planet and a great service for $259/year. In the mean time I used/produced over 20,000 kWh and drove over 40,000 miles and kept my home running all with in that $259.
I track my system's production on a daily basis - and for the past year I have produced 21,510 kWh (I have detailed records) - and yet I had a net usage from PG&E of 2,603 kWh - so I know my solar system produced 21,510 and I still used 2,603 above my production level - so my home's usage for year was 21510+2630 = 24,140 kWh
24,140 kWh at PG&E average rate of $0.25151/kWh for my billing period would've been a $6,071.41 electric bill. Or a 10 year cost of $60,710.00 - my solar system did not cost $60,000 to install - so we're ahead of a 10 year pay back…
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-29-2018 at 12:55 PM.
We have three couples who've done solar in the past 5-10 years and every one of them said, net of cost, they're basically break even relative to PG&E even after five years. They were honest and said that they haven't seen much real savings, but they did it because they thought it was the right thing to to and they hate PG&E (who doesn't). Are any of you guys actually netting positive after the cost of the solar install?
When we installed ours I figured my break-even would be around 6-7 years. At todays prices, under $3/watt, it would be even less. And that is not even counting the gas/oil/etc savings by driving electric. It has been a good investment. Just don't get duped into a lease or PPA (Power Purchase Agreement). Buy the system outright.
A friend of mine who owns a solar company put this chart on his web site to show the differences. Numbers are probably a bit out of date but you'll get the gist of it: https://cinnamon.energy/wp-content/u...ommercial1.jpg
As long as net metering exists, battery add-on doesn't make economic sense. Though it may be useful during the occasional power outage.
...the best plan and cheapest is _NOT_ to go for zero $$$ bill from PG&E - but rather install enough solar to get rid of the "most expensive" power off your bill - If you can install enough solar to cover the house during the day (peak rate time) and have enough production to keep from breaking into various PG&E "tier's" you end up limiting yourself to only paying PG&E for their cheapest electricity which is a big win. Systems that target covering just your "excess" usage can be installed for as little as $6,000-$8,000 - and will make a real difference if they start knocking off $0.42/kWh power during the day…pushing your net usage into the cheapest power PG&E delivers (and way cheaper than the cost of solar)...
That is what I thought when I installed our "phase 1" system. I put 3kW (12x250w) on the roof to get us out of the Tier 3 and 4 charges. Which it did. But the thing is, once the installers truck is rolling and the guys are on the roof, the incremental cost of adding a few more modules isn't that great. And when I'd look at the bill every month, especially on the darker side of the spring/fall equinox, it grated on me to think if I'd just added some more, it would keep running negative numbers for more months...
After we bought our Volt, I added another 3.38kW (13x260w) to cover it and then some. It dropped my net PG&E bill to a couple hundred a year. Without the solar it would be a couple thousand/year or more. This summer I've bought the Model 3 so now have two cars to charge. However I also switched my rates to EV-A - which has really cheap, for California, off-peak charges. So I'll let it run for a few months to see how things work out. I've already been talking with my solar installer friend about another upgrade. This time I may do some battery backup for funsies.
yeah whiz944 I was the same way - it became a quest for me to zero out my bill - but I'm simply pointing out that's not necessary to see an advantage...
the OCD guy in me now has a 14 kW solar system on my main home producing in excess of 20 MWh/year and can spin my meter backward at a rate of 11,500 watts net produced in mid summer - it's a beautiful thing! But I doubt it's the most cost effective approach....that system is now replacing power I could've easily bought from PG&E for less than the cost of solar - but I am satisfied with the systems performance and knowing it's "over spec" and will handle both my transportation and home usage needs for the next 25 years is pretty cool - but I'm insane and bought into this whole renewable energy thing...not everyone needs to be as insane as I am - small and modest Solar system can make a big difference in simply smoothing out the excess usage with out having to wipe out one's bill
it's a bit like charging a battery from 5% - that first 20 minutes is magic and super fast - the next 20-60 minutes have diminishing returns for time invested - I feel the same way about solar - on a pure cost bases that 8-14 panel system that can be had for super cheap has a huge payback in that you will get rid of your excess usage - the next 10 panels may wipe out your usage but cost to install goes up…
here is a link to my San Jose systems production in real time - the system is a beast and produces nearly 50 kWh/day in peak summer
solar can and does work - over time it certainly isn't going to cost you money - and there may even be an ROI case to be made, but it does cost up front and not everyone is bought into this whole plan - like buying a season pass…but I don't know what prices for electricity are going to be in the future but I know I won't have to worry about them - cause my system produces enough to cover my annual usage.
there is also a very very sublime synergy between an EV and Solar - you are literally charging the car from sunlight - and it lumps all of your main power consumption into one place - the solar system on my roof is covering my "shelter" and "transportation" needs - it basically wipes out two bills (home energy) and (chevron)…I did the math on moving my gas appliance to electric and it just makes no sense (and I'm out of roof space)…but gas prices are effectively $0.03-$0.05 / kWh delivered - and based on my historical usage of therms it would take another 20 MWh to replace my annual gas usage - and gas is sooooooo effective and heating and cooking and just down right cheap on a per-kWh basis even my level of insanity can't justify the cost...
when I started breaking into $4000-$5000 / year electric bills Solar was a slam dunk for me and even my initial small system devastated that bill - I've gone further than I need to, but have no regrets and like my over-spec'd system.
note in the 10 years from the time of my 1st system to the new system panels when from 170 watt panels to 350 watt panels - in another 10 years I'm looking forward to installing some 800 watt panels which would allow my roof to produce 40-50 MWh/year and then I can get rid of my gas appliances, and I will probably be able to get a 100 kWh battery for home storage and I never use more than 100 kWh/day - so I could 100% self sufficient....if I'm lucky enough and fortunate enough I'm looking forward to continuing my insanity.
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-29-2018 at 12:43 PM.
I starting to think that if we have commercial scale carbon free power why am I worrying about for my personal residence - just like it's better to consume fossil fuels on a commercial scale vs. 18 gallons at a time in my personal automobile - why dick around with residential solar when the grid is going to be clean in 30 years…
I'm all for residential solar - but if this comes to pass I believe there is really no point in localized production - just like there is no point running home generators because they are not commercial scale or efficient.
I was curious - so here is an actually $$$ analysis - of my actual usage with out solar - keep in mind I'm also no longer buying gasoline so I have that savings as well, yet I still drive just as much.
I track my system's production on a daily basis - and for the past year I have produced 21,510 kWh (I have detailed records) - and yet I had a net usage from PG&E of 2,603 kWh - so I know my solar system produced 21,510 and I still used 2,603 above my production level - so my home's usage for year was 21510+2630 = 24,140 kWh
24,140 kWh at PG&E average rate of $0.25151/kWh for my billing period would've been a $6,071.41 electric bill. Or a 10 year cost of $60,710.00 - my solar system did not cost anywhere close to $60,000 to install (actual cost about 1/3 of that) - so we're well ahead of a 10 year pay back…for $6,000 year worth of electricity at today's rates.
this appears to confirm the 800 volt system won't be able to handle back to back to back sessions - I'll have to do the math but the only way you get 350,000 watts is with local onsite storage - once that is depleted you'll be forced to charge at the rate of the local transformers - this will be fine for lightly used stations (like the 8 stall supercharger I used in Oregon) but really not effective for heavily used stations like the 12 stall one at the mall in Portland that I used…
now there is some math to do here - because the battery can be backfilled by the onsite power connect at some high wattage rate - but it's a losing game - you're pulling from the battery at a faster rate than it can be charges means the battery can hit empty - but the car can't pull at 350,000 watts continuously because of LiON tapering - so this might work - but there will be a threshold of continuous usage where the system quite frankly can't keep up…it will also be a user experience issue in that with this system you can't rely on the charging duration for a stop - because if I pull into the station that has a zero % battery -my charge rate is going to be no where near 350,000 watts…I don't anticipate this going well for Porsche - the system is too complex and has too many variables to actually know how long it's going to take a charge a car.
as always all these fast charging claims are a bit of head-fake from the EV industry - with Tesla so far the only play to actually deploy and scale 120,000 watt chargers - and all claims of anything beyond that is vaporware or has some serious foot-notes…
co-worker did a 4400 mile Thanksgiving run in a Model 3 - turns out Supercharging isn't that much cheaper than cheap gas…I don't think there is anything new here - but it's another data point that shows the overall experience is pretty consistent.
Hi folks,
At the suggestion of others, I thought I’d share some notes after my first long road trip in my new Model 3. It’s my first EV, and this Thanksgiving break served as a great opportunity to learn how charging, Autopiloting, and overall EV ownership was for long trips.
it was great, and charging was not at all the nuisance I thought it would be Autopilot is an invaluable godsend, and Navigate-on-Autopilot a lesser one.
Energy, Cost
4,444 miles round-trip from San Francisco to Houston, TX, mostly on I-10. Three days of driving each way.
1,485 kWh of energy usedThis is equivalent to the energy of about 42 gallons of gasoline!
At a supercharger average of ~$0.20/kWh along the way (AZ, NM, TX are cheaper than CA), this would have cost me ~$300… but I got free supercharging before they took that away, from a good friend
My ICE car could hit about ~32mpg on the same trip and would require about 140 gallons
At ~$3/gal average, this would have cost me ~$420 in gas (carbon secured Not stunningly more than supercharging... I was surprised by this.
Averaging 334 Wh/mi, so closer to 225 miles of range than the advertised 310
For 200+ mile stints, it usually saves more time to drive faster (e.g. 79mph in an 65 zone) and get to the supercharger sooner to juice upCharging Experience30x charge stops total, 3 of which were longer destination charge / ChargePoint stops
35min average @ Superchargers, with 65min prior to the longest stretch. I thought this would suck. Turns out, it was really great, aligned well with stretches, nature’s calls, and “free time” if it aligned with lunch or dinner. Destination chargers @ hotels are *great* as an alternative to Superchargers, if you wanna juice up overnightMost are free, and even if you’re not a customer of the business, talking with the folks of the business results in free or $15/night charging
In Palm Springs, hotels who reserve destination charging for customers had pro tips on where to find free charging + overnight parking nearby!Supercharger lines @ Gilroy only happened on the Sunday after Thanksgiving (busiest travel day of the year), averaging a ~10 min wait
On long road trips during holidays, you’ll run into the same people at every supercharger stop. There really is a “Supercharger Culture"Lots of truck drivers and locals in lonely Supercharger towns were curious about Tesla, and had some simple misunderstandings (it can get 200 miles range!?) \Tesla owners are (sometimes nauseously) eager to evangelize!Tesla was thoughtful enough to set up free snack stands at the really busy superchargers on Sunday Travel Day.Water, grain bars, and ice cream for the kiddos!
Normal employees man them. Met a real nice solar panel engineer at Atascadero on Sunday.
This courtesy *really* surprised me. This is a car company!Saw ~4x pods with malfunctioned superchargers. Usually marked with a plastic bag tied around the handle.
Obsessively planned each stop on route to TX. Stressed over each % of planned vs. actual, using ABRPand all.
On the route back, let the car do all the thinking. It worked just as well and I was much happier.AutopilotIndispensablefor road trips. Really takes nearly all the strain of driving away. Fantastic in 2 hours of stop-and-go traffic when coming back to the Bay on Sunday after Thanksgiving.Navigate-on-Autopilot is usually more annoying than helpful with its lane change suggestionsBiggest benefit is prepping you for an upcoming exit and actually taking it for you, blinker and all. Would have missed a couple of exits otherwise.Does NOT avoid tumbleweeds yet. See dashcam footage below. Had to intervene to avoid!One really must listen to the “keep hands on wheel, eyes on road” Does NOT avoid potholes, see belowServiceLow-profile tires + Houston potholes = two instantly-busted tires ��
Pothole was hit on autopilot. Must stay attentive!
Tesla Roadside service is *awesome* (in the less-saturated Tesla market of Houston, anyway) Arrived in 30mins with a flatbed, super friendly driver who delivered the first Tesla to Houston in 2012
Included 50 miles of free towing, enough to get to the service centerService Center was amazing tooThey usually have loaner wheels for you while they fix your tires, but the 3 Performance wheels aren’t common enough for this
They managed to find 2x tires from another service center and fix them later that day
Service included 2x ~$30 Lyft rides to/from my lodging, for free!
Tumbleweeds, even ones this big, seem to have bad visual and radar cross-sections for AP2.5 . My attentive driver intervened in time!
08-28-2018 | 03:51 PM
. That and a Tesla powerwall and you’re rockin it.
I know I had to write a big check for the solar system and that same money could've been used to pay bills over time - I understand that - but for me there is an emotional satisfaction in knowing I should not see an electric bill ever again in my life as long as I live in this home - there will never be a monthly bill - and I did it for one fixed upfront payment - now I'm done.
. My attentive driver intervened in time!
Not stunningly more than supercharging... I was surprised by this.