A few points:

1. One CarMax offer does not make the market. Take a look at pricing on cars.com for 2016 90D’s. In order to get to an EVEN price with a Performance 3, you are looking at a 30k to 40k mile example.

2. The S is overpriced for what it offers relative to the market. Before there was no competition in terms of range, luxury, performance and tech. Now that is there, and it’s in house. The 3 is priced appropriately to the market. The incremental size and performance of the S does not justify nearly a double price.

3. I can u derstand Dave’s concern for the Taycan. But I suspect that it will a higher overall quality than the Tesla’s, and some of that additional price will be justified. Same with the overall performance and handling. If it’s similar price to a P100D, I’d buy the Tesla. Because I don’t use the superchargers all that often.

 

So how/where would you fix a used S that’s out of warranty? Does Tesla sell warranty extensions? What’s the expected lifetime of the battery and how much would it cost to replace?

 

To be clear about my fuel gauge comment, I was thinking primarily about road trips. I’m aware that you can pretty much expect to have a full charge every morning, and in any case the only time I’m really feeling any concern about fuel in a gasoline car is if I’m on a highway and I’m thinking about whether I need to find a gas station soon to continue the trip. That’s when I’m frequently monitoring the gauge.

I guess that’s really a non-issue with an electric car, because if you’re doing a road trip, you have to plan recharging. So you’re not just driving until fuel looks to be a concern, you’ve got a trip mapped out where charging points are waypoints.

Which brings up something that I keep wondering about - will Porsche start requiring dealerships to provide level 3 or better chargers, once the Taycan’s in production?

 

Agree. Just leased a M3 performance through my business this week to be my DD. 90% of the performance of the S for 55% of the price, so it was an easy choice.

I think the recent M3 price cuts were made with the Taycan release in mind.
The Taycan will have a better interior and better handling, but there will be multiple trim levels and I expect only the top Taycan trim level will approach the M3 performance specs for acceleration, and will cost 120K, while base Taycan will be around 90K. So the base model 3 and the performance model 3 will be priced 40% of the cost of respective Taycans, which will ensure Tesla will still sell plenty of model 3s after the Taycan starts production.

 

Looks like Taycan will be a 5-series, E-class level car, like the Model S, or even higher. The M3 is more like 3-series, C-class level, if that. Regardless of acceleration numbers ("performance"), a 3-series/C-class feels/drives much different than a 5-series/E-class and the relative prices reflect this. Comparing the Taycan to M3 is apples to oranges.

 

I doubt the base price of the Taycan will be $95k USD. They said the base will be priced between the Cayenne and Panamera, so a base price in the $80k to $85k USD range would make sense. Options will drive the cost above that of course. Your guess of $120k for the Taycan Turbo is plausible, though I expect the price to be even higher for the top trim - look at the price difference between a base 911 and a 911 Turbo. However, I expect the acceleration of the Taycan Turbo to be closer to the Model S P100D - journalists have already said the prototypes do 0-60 MPH under 3 seconds.

OT - it bothers me how Elon has convinced the public that 0-60 is all that performance is about. (...says the “legacy” buyer who is going to spend 6 figures for a new “dinosaur burning” sports car that needs more than 4 seconds to go 0-60 freedom units per hour. Elon knows even his base pick up truck will be a better sports car.)

 

After the spec and especially pricing became known I doubt there will be even a single person who will cross shop between Taycan and Model 3. The latest I've heard is the top model will be $149K. Only super rich or drug dealers with money to throw away will buy it as a toy. The Model 3 strategy is to sell as many as it could without trying to protect the perceived value. That's something people used to Porsche and some other high end cars will not be able to easily comprehend. Tesla's target is not Taycan but the entire ICE auto industry. By doing so it will destroy the perceived value of ALL ICE cars. I have to say this is starting to happen now. BMW seems to be the first victim. Porsche will be the next, not 911 or Taycan but the Macan in the near future. Then it will be those pickup and supercar makers. This is the grand scheme of how Elon has things planned out.

 

Agree that no one will cross shop a model 3 and a Taycan. My point was that the model 3 performance version is so fast, and offers so much performance for a $55,000 car that Taycan won't hurt those model 3 sales, but the Taycan will certainly affect Model S sales.

I'm curious what the final specs/cost will be on the top of the line Taycan?
All the official Porsche reports say a 0-60 of 3.5 seconds. Porsche is famously conservative with their 0-60 times, but I doubt that a published Porsche 0-60 time of 3.5 will be faster than 3.0 seconds in the real world. The Model S with ludicrous mode is rated at 2.4 seconds and journalists have independently verified that time. It will be interesting (after the first year novelty sales) to observe sale numbers of the now $99,990 Model S with Ludicrous mode compared to the $120-140,000 top of the line Taycan with a significantly slower 0-60 time compared to the Model S performance version.

 

User experience is not limited to 0-60 acceleration.
One thing the German car makers do is, they don't compromise on battery longevity for better 0-60s or for higher energy density. So their expected battery life is longer. And this way (not letting the battery perform at its limits) they can bring their 0-60 times in most conditions, unlike Tesla who reaches this top 0-60 with fully charged battery at specific temperature. Additionally Tesla loses power at higher speeds which matters on the German highway. Here in US no one cares about that. But if this car can't keep 250km/h constantly, that's a bigger issue over there than the 0-60 times.
Also if you think about Audi limiting the maximum usable capacity to ~82%. Yes, they are ok to give up on range for better user experience: Longer battery life and no frustration at charging up (don't need to wait forever to reach 100%).
Germans are ok to pick a battery material that has slightly less energy density, yet it is a safer material. Very low chance of spontaneous battery fire. Again this results in less range. But for a reason.

 

It does not look like the Model 3 has any issue with high speed autobahn driving. I did not even see it been overtaken by a German car in the entire trip.

 

You realize this is a Porsche forum. People here tends to have money.
It was trendy in the early years of Model S, 2012-2016 to drive a Tesla but once the Model 3 flooded California, that's ended. People who have a budget for the Taycan won't buy a Tesla.


This works only until the sales are plateaued. Then they will have to take care of the existing owners to generate new car sales.


Before they try to destroy the ICE business, they will need to figure it out how to get enough raw material for the batteries.

BMW's car sales haven't dropped for years. How are they a victim?

Also an interesting comment: 'A Model 3 AWD owner at work had struggled with fixing squeaks and rattles since new, and sold recently at a huge loss to get ready for the G20 330e hybrid.'

Tesla needs to fix their quality and service.

 

It slowed down below 220km/h due to throttling.

Watch this here:

 

It’ll probably be slower than the P100D for 0-60 for reasons accoste mentioned above. However, given that the Taycan Turbo has over 600 hp, and the Model 3P can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds with 450 hp, and that the Taycan will probably have better tires, it would be shocking to see Taycan Turbo 0-60 not below 3 seconds. The 3.5 second 0-100 km/h they’ve been quoting for years is for the Mission E concept from 2017, and isn’t representative of the actual Taycan Turbo.

Anyway, given that a model 3P can beat a manual GT3 0-60, can seat 5, and Elon promises it’ll be fully self driving next year, I don’t understand why any fool would pay 3 times as much for an obsolete car from a legacy brand. Slower 0-60, less than half the passenger capacity, not fully self driving. It’s not even worth half a Model 3P - people will only pay $30k tops for a manual GT3. /s

 

@acoste You should just put your money where your mouth is and buy a Taycan. No one is going to stop you from doing that.

@wizee Even stranger thing is Taycan is said to have a second gear. I think we are giving Porsche too much benefit of doubt. This is a new tech and Tesla has been doing it for a long time.

 

It is a great question. There are sites like https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ which easily allow you to optimally plan a road trip. ABRP was really intended for 'level 3' fast charging locations, though one can select L2 charging as well. Another popular site for finding charging locations of all manner is https://www.plugshare.com/. Tesla owners can look at https://supercharge.info/map to get an idea of what the current state of the Supercharger network is, and where it is going.

I'm planning for a long road trip soon that will mostly be near Superchargers along the way. But at least one overnight will be somewhat far away from Superchargers, and none of the motels in town have L2 charging. So I'm just going to camp overnight at a KOA Kampground and do L2 charging from one of their NEMA 14-50 outlets. (I'm doing it solo, and am an old Boy Scout. So NBD to put the car in "dog mode", fold down the seats, and crash in the back overnight.) Interestingly the town, Ely, Nevada, is right in the process of getting a high speed CCS/CHAdeMO charging station installed. According to my contact at the State of Nevada, it won't be ready in time for my trip. And I'd need the $450 CHAdeMO adapter. But when the station comes on-line in a few months, the same leg of the trip will be quite doable at high speed.

Well, they'll have to service cars that have DC charging. So they'll need some form of it - at least in their service area. Not sure a car dealer is a great place for tourists to charge while passing through. Though last weekend I Supercharged, twice, at the Rocklin, California Supercharger site. It is co-located with one of their sales/service centers. They have a nice lounge area with free coffee and such. But after using 'the facilities', I opted to walk around the shopping center next door for a few minutes. Was charging at about 140 kW, (500+ mph), so didn't need to stay there for very long.