Mission E / Taycan - Deposits
06-19-2018, 05:10 PM
#121
using your numbers
(200/$10.50) = 19.05 miles/$ == or 5.2c/mile
/
(65/$10.50) = 6.19 miles/$ == or 16.16c/mile
which is about 3x delta.
You'd also have to toss in $ for oil changes (depending on what oil you use and if you do it yourself -- this can vary widely)
let's assume you do it yourself -- $100 for oil and filter every 6000 miles, or 1.67c/mile
which adds about a 10% cost for the ICE.
Mike
(200/$10.50) = 19.05 miles/$ == or 5.2c/mile
/
(65/$10.50) = 6.19 miles/$ == or 16.16c/mile
which is about 3x delta.
You'd also have to toss in $ for oil changes (depending on what oil you use and if you do it yourself -- this can vary widely)
let's assume you do it yourself -- $100 for oil and filter every 6000 miles, or 1.67c/mile
which adds about a 10% cost for the ICE.
Mike
Hopefully this car is as good as advertised when available.
06-19-2018, 05:24 PM
#122
Rennlist Member
charging an EV is tricky due to charge tapering - you can only "fill" LiON batteries at the maximum rate if they are nearly empty - and the approach full you drop the amperage - so time is an illusion vs. range added
example: charging from 5% - 60% on a Tesla Model S takes about 30 minutes and gets you ~180 miles of range in that 30 minutes
but charging from 60% - 90% takes another 30 minutes and only gets you another ~100 miles of range
Porsche is using 800 volt systems - so you change the 30 minute time windows into 15 min. time windows, but they will still have to taper the charge rate - and the fastest charge rate only applies when the battery is nearly empty - if you're pulling in at 54% charge rate the amount of "range/charge" you get for 15-20 minute charge session is about 1/2 of what you'd get for the same amount of time if you started charging at 5% battery…
I've changed my perspective on a fast charging stop - any fee associate with fast charging is a fee that I pay to save time vs. a traditional slower L2 charger (basically I can fast charge in 20-30 minutes what would normally take 6-8 hours on a L2 charger) - this perspective works for me since I use fast charging only when road tripping - and 95% of my normal charging is done in my garage overnight - where time doesn't matter and I never use the whole battery in a typical day.
basically I don't use Fast Chargers like an ICE car uses a gas station - charge at home/work most of the time, fast charge infrequently when you're away from home and on the road.
example: charging from 5% - 60% on a Tesla Model S takes about 30 minutes and gets you ~180 miles of range in that 30 minutes
but charging from 60% - 90% takes another 30 minutes and only gets you another ~100 miles of range
Porsche is using 800 volt systems - so you change the 30 minute time windows into 15 min. time windows, but they will still have to taper the charge rate - and the fastest charge rate only applies when the battery is nearly empty - if you're pulling in at 54% charge rate the amount of "range/charge" you get for 15-20 minute charge session is about 1/2 of what you'd get for the same amount of time if you started charging at 5% battery…
I've changed my perspective on a fast charging stop - any fee associate with fast charging is a fee that I pay to save time vs. a traditional slower L2 charger (basically I can fast charge in 20-30 minutes what would normally take 6-8 hours on a L2 charger) - this perspective works for me since I use fast charging only when road tripping - and 95% of my normal charging is done in my garage overnight - where time doesn't matter and I never use the whole battery in a typical day.
basically I don't use Fast Chargers like an ICE car uses a gas station - charge at home/work most of the time, fast charge infrequently when you're away from home and on the road.
06-19-2018, 06:54 PM
#123
charging an EV is tricky due to charge tapering - you can only "fill" LiON batteries at the maximum rate if they are nearly empty - and the approach full you drop the amperage - so time is an illusion vs. range added
example: charging from 5% - 60% on a Tesla Model S takes about 30 minutes and gets you ~180 miles of range in that 30 minutes
but charging from 60% - 90% takes another 30 minutes and only gets you another ~100 miles of range
Porsche is using 800 volt systems - so you change the 30 minute time windows into 15 min. time windows, but they will still have to taper the charge rate - and the fastest charge rate only applies when the battery is nearly empty - if you're pulling in at 54% charge rate the amount of "range/charge" you get for 15-20 minute charge session is about 1/2 of what you'd get for the same amount of time if you started charging at 5% battery…
I've changed my perspective on a fast charging stop - any fee associate with fast charging is a fee that I pay to save time vs. a traditional slower L2 charger (basically I can fast charge in 20-30 minutes what would normally take 6-8 hours on a L2 charger) - this perspective works for me since I use fast charging only when road tripping - and 95% of my normal charging is done in my garage overnight - where time doesn't matter and I never use the whole battery in a typical day.
basically I don't use Fast Chargers like an ICE car uses a gas station - charge at home/work most of the time, fast charge infrequently when you're away from home and on the road.
example: charging from 5% - 60% on a Tesla Model S takes about 30 minutes and gets you ~180 miles of range in that 30 minutes
but charging from 60% - 90% takes another 30 minutes and only gets you another ~100 miles of range
Porsche is using 800 volt systems - so you change the 30 minute time windows into 15 min. time windows, but they will still have to taper the charge rate - and the fastest charge rate only applies when the battery is nearly empty - if you're pulling in at 54% charge rate the amount of "range/charge" you get for 15-20 minute charge session is about 1/2 of what you'd get for the same amount of time if you started charging at 5% battery…
I've changed my perspective on a fast charging stop - any fee associate with fast charging is a fee that I pay to save time vs. a traditional slower L2 charger (basically I can fast charge in 20-30 minutes what would normally take 6-8 hours on a L2 charger) - this perspective works for me since I use fast charging only when road tripping - and 95% of my normal charging is done in my garage overnight - where time doesn't matter and I never use the whole battery in a typical day.
basically I don't use Fast Chargers like an ICE car uses a gas station - charge at home/work most of the time, fast charge infrequently when you're away from home and on the road.
06-19-2018, 09:33 PM
#124
Fresh off PCA newsletter:
https://www.pca.org/news/2018-06-19/video-driving-porsches-mission-e-taycan-cross-turismo-concept
https://www.pca.org/news/2018-06-19/video-driving-porsches-mission-e-taycan-cross-turismo-concept
06-19-2018, 10:21 PM
#125
Rennlist Member
How large is the anticipated cost reduction when recharging at home vs doing it at Electrify America? Is it something like a 20% or 30% reduction? The Mission E is becoming more compelling and desirable each day. (And like daveo4porsche, most of my driving is local.)
06-19-2018, 10:34 PM
#126
Rennlist Member
I don't know - what the cost reduction is - but a lot depends on your local electrical provider - in my area PGI don't know - what the cost reduction is - but a lot depends on your local electrical provider - in my area Pacific Gas and Electic PG&E - my off-peak night time rate where I do most of my charging is $0.1254/kwh - based on 3.3 miles per kWh - the cost per-mile is in the neighborhood of $0.03-$0.04/mile for “fuel”
I’ve found “public” charging at $0.20 to $0.40 per kWh will increase cost per-mile by about 3x - but it can be better or worse depending on what network you use and how much you use it - I use public networks infrequently - and as I’ve said typically when traveling and I focus on the time savings fast charging offers rather than the “fuel” cost…
I’ve found “public” charging at $0.20 to $0.40 per kWh will increase cost per-mile by about 3x - but it can be better or worse depending on what network you use and how much you use it - I use public networks infrequently - and as I’ve said typically when traveling and I focus on the time savings fast charging offers rather than the “fuel” cost…
06-19-2018, 10:59 PM
#127
Rennlist Member
Many thanks for the insight! It really helps to structure the thought process, and puts things into a perspective that I'll use for moving forward.
06-20-2018, 01:21 PM
#129
Burning Brakes
06-26-2018, 03:36 PM
#130
Drifting
charging an EV is tricky due to charge tapering - you can only "fill" LiON batteries at the maximum rate if they are nearly empty - and the approach full you drop the amperage - so time is an illusion vs. range added
example: charging from 5% - 60% on a Tesla Model S takes about 30 minutes and gets you ~180 miles of range in that 30 minutes
but charging from 60% - 90% takes another 30 minutes and only gets you another ~100 miles of range
Porsche is using 800 volt systems - so you change the 30 minute time windows into 15 min. time windows, but they will still have to taper the charge rate - and the fastest charge rate only applies when the battery is nearly empty - if you're pulling in at 54% charge rate the amount of "range/charge" you get for 15-20 minute charge session is about 1/2 of what you'd get for the same amount of time if you started charging at 5% battery…
I've changed my perspective on a fast charging stop - any fee associate with fast charging is a fee that I pay to save time vs. a traditional slower L2 charger (basically I can fast charge in 20-30 minutes what would normally take 6-8 hours on a L2 charger) - this perspective works for me since I use fast charging only when road tripping - and 95% of my normal charging is done in my garage overnight - where time doesn't matter and I never use the whole battery in a typical day.
basically I don't use Fast Chargers like an ICE car uses a gas station - charge at home/work most of the time, fast charge infrequently when you're away from home and on the road.
example: charging from 5% - 60% on a Tesla Model S takes about 30 minutes and gets you ~180 miles of range in that 30 minutes
but charging from 60% - 90% takes another 30 minutes and only gets you another ~100 miles of range
Porsche is using 800 volt systems - so you change the 30 minute time windows into 15 min. time windows, but they will still have to taper the charge rate - and the fastest charge rate only applies when the battery is nearly empty - if you're pulling in at 54% charge rate the amount of "range/charge" you get for 15-20 minute charge session is about 1/2 of what you'd get for the same amount of time if you started charging at 5% battery…
I've changed my perspective on a fast charging stop - any fee associate with fast charging is a fee that I pay to save time vs. a traditional slower L2 charger (basically I can fast charge in 20-30 minutes what would normally take 6-8 hours on a L2 charger) - this perspective works for me since I use fast charging only when road tripping - and 95% of my normal charging is done in my garage overnight - where time doesn't matter and I never use the whole battery in a typical day.
basically I don't use Fast Chargers like an ICE car uses a gas station - charge at home/work most of the time, fast charge infrequently when you're away from home and on the road.
I think the issue is that LiON does not like to be overcharged even a little bit -- the batteries get damaged. Each cell charges differently (assembly/chemical/age/use), if anyone cell is damaged, it can have affects on an entire pack. So believe you have to be careful when charging.
It also depends on how much monitoring you can do -- sometimes its not possible or feasible to monitor every cell. So you charge up at full rate -- until you think you are getting close to anyone reaching capacity. Then you have to levelize the pack. Basically, stop charging and
let them settle. Then you can begin charging again -- but this time probably slower as to not have the quick charging cells racing ahead. Wait or detect, stop, levelize, repeat.
I believe this is the basic concept why the packs can go from 0- say 75% very quickly -- full rate if you will -- then they have to go into slower charging modes.
As the overcharging or differences in charging become better over time of battery evolution -- then this process maybe improved overall.
Mike
06-26-2018, 04:39 PM
#131
Rennlist Member
06-26-2018, 04:42 PM
#132
Rennlist Member
road trip this weekend to Solvang with the Model X P100D - really wonderful road car - one stop on the way down to Solvang in San Luis Obispo - 15 minutes - checked out the gift shop and took a bio-break…1 stop on the way back from Solvang in Salinas - grabbed a burger at five guys - really no problem - normal hwy speeds, full AC blasting - took the long scenic route Solvang to Morrow Bay to 101 via Hwy 46 - really wonderful drive - and virtually no different than doing it in an ICE car (charged overnight at hotel to 100% before leaving in the morning).
I'm looking forward to the mission-E
I'm looking forward to the mission-E
06-26-2018, 05:46 PM
#133
Rennlist Member
what I'm really looking forward to is new battery chemistries that's don't suffer the physical characteristics of LiON batteries - I know it could take some time, but one of the key advantages of EV is how modular they could be - in that you could swap a battery/control software for an entirely new type of battery and keep the rest of the car as long as voltage/amps is close enough…the leaf has already done this to some extend in that newer leaf batteries retrofited into older Leafs are an improved chemistry and density but the 2011 leaf is kept largely intact...
I'd much rather focus on improving emerging battery chemistry than continue to screw around with LiON which as a number of well understood downsides…but I think we're stuck with LiON and it's cousins for at least the next 5 years of production models…2024 could be interesting if some things I'm watching come to pass…
I'd much rather focus on improving emerging battery chemistry than continue to screw around with LiON which as a number of well understood downsides…but I think we're stuck with LiON and it's cousins for at least the next 5 years of production models…2024 could be interesting if some things I'm watching come to pass…
06-26-2018, 07:20 PM
#134
txhokie4life, There are only few exceptions, like air cooled Leaf batteries, in Arizona, I think where there were problems (and care didn't seem to matter). Lithium batteries were first set to conservative charge windows, like the Volt's 65% when it began. There, the battery was small (16KWh) and there was little reason not to want it fully charged. Modern, all-electric, cars (60-100KWh) don't need to be fully charged all the time w/~300 miles range. Tesla's charge windows are manually set, with I think a maximum 93% of capacity charge and min remaining charge of something like 5% (So, ~88% charge window) -this is a "range charge". Other BEV makers also don't allow absolute full charging, or depletion (bricking) in order to avoid abuse. After its intro, Volt crept up to ~75%, or so, with BEVs starting to land above 80%. Yes, it is has been a limit of all batteries, not to go full/empty, but out of sight, out of mind to customers who accept the limits of range or charge speed for trips.
07-05-2018, 10:12 PM
#135
Burning Brakes
I just received a notification from my dealer to go to a Porsche Corporate website to register for the Taycan deposit. It appears as if they are doing a Tesla like approach and having people register with their deposit. Once registered I received a notification that my selected dealer will contact me about next steps. It didn't require submitting a deposit yet.
Has anyone else seen this? Any idea what's going on? Any idea on the deposit amount?
Here is a link to the site.
https://my.porsche.com/usa/microsite...mance-deposit/
Thanks!
Has anyone else seen this? Any idea what's going on? Any idea on the deposit amount?
Here is a link to the site.
https://my.porsche.com/usa/microsite...mance-deposit/
Thanks!