Gary Knox

Came across this article from Hagerty earlier this month about 928's. Nothing earthshaking (!!), but generally good press.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market...e929c5764f483d

Gary

davek9

I missed that one, than you for sharing Gary

Dave K

Shuga

I'm going to be priced out before I get one. Gotta keep this one a secret for a bit haha

Kiln_Red

They've been a secret since before the end of their production. Coverage of the 928 fell off a cliff not long after the debut of the S4. In the past 10 years, they've gotten more press than they have since the late 80s.

The irony, to me, is the vehicles that command the most money; OBs & GTSs. The reality is that the apex of the car's dominance (from a performance & popularity perspective) is the 928 S, specifically the Euro S, Euro S2, and 86.5.

I may be wrong, but I expect those 3 models to appreciate the fastest (relative basis) over the next 10-15 years. Get yours ASAP!

davek9

1986.5's are the GTS of the original body type
S4 suspension and brakes and the 32v 5.ltr V8 power plant !

NoVector

* - On BAT, it's the manual GTS that bring the real bread. Here's the most recent 8; easy to spot the autos:

Kiln_Red

Understanding the disparity between manual versus auto is easy. What has ALWAYS escaped me is the premium for GTSs. For a fraction of the price difference, an 86.5 can be made to run mirror to mirror with it - without the oil consumption issues.

Also, I don't recall how many 86.5 cars were produced, but there were just a bit more than 2,800 GTSs IIRC. So, I'm sure they're both just about equally "exclusive".

In Ferrari world, for example, there isn't that much of a valuation gap between the 348 & 355. The performance gap, though, is actually wider. 75 horsepower between 348 vs 355.. in the same model year. 67 horsepower between the '86.5 and GTS, separated by 6 model years.

I think the price gap is extreme at both ends. IMO the '86.5 is egregiously undervalued & underappreciated. Same with the 5-speed '86 Euro S2 which is probably MY true unicorn car. Remember: ALL MY86 Euro S2 cars had the MY87 upgrades.

It's all subjective, but I'd pay more for a 5-speed '86 Euro S2 than a GTS. Especially, if it were without rub strips and a sunroof since I'm 6'2. Personally, I'm not paying Prancing Horse money for a GTS.

Kiln_Red

Michael Benoit was getting 100k plus for his low mileage GTSs. I think it was about 20 years ago when he started keeping one in his inventory. Honestly, I think he changed the market. Valuations of the other models didn't really bottom out until about 2010. The GTS, for whatever reason, bottomed out sooner. 2002/03 was probably the period when I remember the lowest asking prices for them.

Jon B.

This is partially why I've changed my mind on finding a manual GTS. I'd rather pay ~50% less for a GT and have 95-98% of the same car. I'm a sucker for an 86.5 as well, but I think the GT's are likely in the "sweetest" spot for me personally.

pcAdam

Good press for sure; that article is pretty spot on. Thanks for posting the link Gary.

Kiln_Red

A GT is certainly still a lot of car for the money. Agreed. I just never really liked the later tail lights, the rear spoiler, and the lower claddings on the later body style. Then there's the dual disc vs single disc clutch, pusher/puller fans vs fully electric, PSD vs LSD, airbags vs non-airbags preferences to name a few. Going with MY89 vs later satisfies 2 of those preferences (PSD/LSD & SRS/non-SRS).

Tomkat80222

This is true, but there is more to this then just the transmission. I know since I just spent close to 60K to go over my94 auto GTS. With all the maintenance and upgrades, I wouldn't take less than 100K for the it.

hacker-pschorr

Performance is rarely if ever the reason behind such value disparages. The GTS is the final, ultimate variation of 928 and the last. Most of them are not going to be driven much anyway. We can try and justify all we want why X year is technically better, our reasoning doesn't mean a thing to the overall collector car market.

There are plenty of examples where the higher performance car is worth less. Corvette's are good example. Everyone wants a numbers matching big block, except for those who actually drive their cars prefer the small blocks. Sure in the 1/4 mile the BB should be faster, but actually drive one for a while they overheat, brakes are inadequate, nose heavy etc..
The '63 split window is one of the worst Corvette's you could buy (early production issues, drum brakes, engine options not great etc...) yet they command huge money for that piece of fiberglass through the rear window (that folks were removing back in the 60's to make their '63 look newer).


355 6-speed coupe / GTS have shot through the roof well over $100k to $200k while decent 348's of all flavors are still under $100k. But numbers don't tell the whole story, drive both, there's no comparison. I'd take a first gen Acura NSX over a 348 but not a 355.

Again, it goes beyond numbers. Line up one of every version of 928 in random order and tell me which one is the 86.5. Not one person in this group could tell you unless close inspection were allowed. Meanwhile the GTS will stick out like sore thumb (in a good way).

To the average person or car collector, an 81 US competition package looks identical to an 86.5 and performance (on paper) is lightyears apart. That being said, I'll keep my 81 with the comp package, S-brakes and 5-speed over an 86.5 automatic.

To be totally honest, I'm the odd man out here. I really don't see the value, all things being equal, between an 85/86 over an 86.5. Yes they should be worth a premium, but not anything significant like GTS money. Frankly if I'm going to have a Pre-S4 body I'd prefer to have the lighter 16V engine to go with it.

Tossing the OB's into this conversation makes zero sense. Nobody is buying a 78 for $100,000 because of the performance aspect of the car.

For an apples to apples comparison from a similar era you are looking at a 550 Maranello. Prices for those start at $120k. IMO it's one of the greatest Ferrari's made.

Jon B.

Simple answer here, buy what you like and enjoy it. I know if I wanted to take a pristine GTS to do some laps at VIR (my home track), I'd be really nervous for more than a few reasons. I want to enjoy something without having to worry about it all the time.

Kiln_Red

Erik,

Enjoyed reading your thoughts on the topic. These kinds of conversations are fun, but (as you know), at the end of the day what we prefer is reflected in our highest and lowest offers for x and y. There's a whole world around us, so our footprint on the bid/ask is basically undetectable.

Performance is just one factor, but I do think it is a relevant one. Where that lands sequentially in the order of importance, I'm not sure. Same goes for total production, special features, etc. I think we're in alignment in that regard.

I didn't bring up the 348/355 for its likeness to the 928. I brought it up because of its vintage & the fact that these models also stem from long running platforms. The F355 is unequivocally the best (and final) refinement of the wedge front, steel-bodied, flat-plane V8 cars.. as well as the model with the largest supply. We owe some credit to Acura, I guess, for its development. So, again, we agree. 355 > 348.. by a lot. Yet, note the spread between the price of admission in percentage terms.

Clicking back over to the 928 GTS for a moment, you described it as the "ultimate". I'm not sure that this is as widely believed as it is in the case of the comparison between the 308/328/348/355. Now, let's think about the gap that persists in terms of the price of admission into the various 928 submodels.. in percentage terms.

Like Jon said, is 15 horsepower worth 100% more? Is it the wide quarters? The rear reflector? The aero mirrors? Before you say the performance is unimportant, you must consider that we're now dangerously close to cognitive dissonance, i.e. paying a big premium for a car with so few defining characteristics that it barely warrants its own badge.

I don't think the GTS is as overvalued as I think the 80s models are undervalued FWIW.