Darklands

With the 993 the 911 becomes a worthy suspension also capable for long trips.

Zirconocene

@hacker-pschorr : I put up a post about a 959 article in the most recent copy of Excellence, but there was also an article in there about the Cayman R, and how it compares to the 911R of the same vintage, which might be of similar interest to you.

Cheers

NoVector

And then there was the time me and David were having lunch and this guy pulls up and asks if we want to race for pinks

Jon B.

As a Miata guy, I'd personally recommend the current ND! This kinda comes back around to another conversation we've had with the C6 Corvettes (Z06 in particular). The 996 GT3 was kind of the first/last of the GT3 with Porsche saying "This is what you get as your road car, deal with it." Same deal with the C6Z as GM catered to all the fat old men that wanted a Z06 with an auto gearbox and the ability to take the roof off in the C7.

Might I also recommend the Boxster Spyder? LMAO, we've gone wayyyyy off the rails with this one!

hacker-pschorr

I love Miata's. Friend of the family bought the first one delivered to Lawrence, Kansas (where I grew up). He paid a pretty penny over MSRP to get one on the first round. I've always wanted one, just never got around to it LOL. Sad to say I drove one for the first time two weeks ago when my nephew picked up a 92 with a welded diff and some other upgrades. He's signed up for a drifting school and is asking me about a turbo kit.
We have a customer at the shop who dropped a Jaguar V6 into his 96 Miata and we installed Motec M130 to control everything.
When the new Targa came out I ran over to the dealership the day it arrived. I dunno, someday I'll probably get one, but we already have two roadsters (986 and replica Cobra) which leans me more towards the F86 or a Cayman.

Back to 928's. I've basically turning my 79 into a "GT3" of sorts, 996 not 997 LOL.
It's gutted, rack converted to manual steering. HVAC / AC deleted, S4 brakes, upgraded suspension, modified (wider) phone dials wearing equal size super 200 tires....... My goal is under 2,700lbs.

I still want a C4 GrandSport. Only came in a 6-speed and the LT4 is severely underrated. Forgot to add that to my "should have bought" list when those were selling for $15k or less all day long

I was excited when that was announced thinking it would be a GT3 of sorts Boxster that wasn't used Ferrari money. When it came out and hit the scales at 3,200lbs I lost interest. Nothing in the Boxster lineup should be over 2,900lbs much less 3,000

I'm more or less in a holding pattern until I sell something. I need to get off my *** and list the Scirocco on BAT.

cobalt

LOL A lot to digest. I hope I got the true gist and my comments make sense. Although I do agree with most of what was said. Such a subjective conversation. I suspect my response will be disjointed and long winded..

I'll start with the 930. I personally am not a fan of the 4 speed box or torsion bar suspension. It doesn't make for the experience I like. I would agree the 930 and even my 965 are more GT than their 911 counterparts. Although a great street machine not an easy car to drive flat out on track. Although no where near the GT car my 928 or even the 993TT became. I turned down $600k for my 94 turbo 3.6. In all honesty I wouldn't pay that much for it but it is too wonderful to let go. My wife made me promise if anyone offered me $1M I would sell and I will if it comes to that. Although being one of one US spec and 1 of 2 worldwide it is a truly special car. The 94 3.6T to me is the pinnacle of the turbo air-cooled line and probably one of the best Porsche experience one can have even including the modern cars which are too big and only enjoyable at triple digits. The 94 was an overpriced luxury item costing 6 figures back in 94. That doesn't necessarily classify it as a GT car but more so than my 964's which are pure sports cars after I am done with them. The 5 speed box, std LSD, coil over vs torsion bar suspension and the 3.6 L engine GTS brakes in red and those 18" speedlines make for classic look and an experience like none of the the others. Not to forget working A/C ABS and Air-bags for the safety side of us. My car has slight bolt on mods so it puts down 385 rwhp and 390 ft pounds of tq. So it is a bit of a heavy fast beast. Power is far more controllable than the older 930 and the brakes actually slow it down. The 964 C2 is one of the best overall platforms Porsche made up till the 2000's. Clearly they knew they had to step up their game to compete with other manufacturers and the outgoing 928 which is sad that it was killed off. The 993 especially the turbo was a land yacht of the 911 line up to that point. Incredibly capable and far easy to drive. To me they took all the excitement out of the platform despite the similarities. The GT versions were nice but not imported to the US and a bit too over the top looks wise. I drove a 993 3.8RSR and it was a monster but I would still keep my 3.6T over it for many reasons. Mostly it is a track car.

The early boxster was a great step forward but the M96 engine has far too many issues. I don't appreciate them as much as you although they are more analog than the newer boxster's. I do enjoy my 981 Boxster GTSM. IMO it is the best of the lineage, the perfect package with a cobb tune and X73 sport package. The sounds the feel and handling make for a well balanced experience but it is more GT than the >987. I would take it over the more powerful 718 4.0. My 981 GT4 has its shortcomings but it is one of the best modern platforms hands down. I repalced the front suspension with double sheer GT3 uprights and cup car calipers and it is just an incredible platform but my son and I still prefer the 964 for overall track driving and fun.

Sadly some of the best water cooled 911's were the 996GT models. It seemed they realized once they made the base 996 a luxury GT they needed to make a sportier version which became the GT models. The GT2 was a beast of car and the closest modern day experience to my 94 turbo. I would still take my 94 over any of them. I was also never a fan of styling and interior which was inferior quality to the simple older cars.

The 928's, my RoW 79 supposedly had, per the factory documentation an engine bored out to 5.0L but looked stock. It was a present to a long time exec. So I was told by him. It was far faster than other 928's at the time but I don't know what happened to that one or if it in fact had the larger engine. It was also far less GT than my 93 GTS. Lighter less power but a great car with a far more analog feel.. A 5 speed with no sunroof or rub strips and Pasha everywhere. White over black. If it wasn't for constant electrical issues I would have kept it. I would say albeit faster it was more similar to the SC's of the day. As I see it although each model of the 928 has its differences it has many more similarities tan the vintage 911. The GT and S4 are great cars but not as much of a difference to the GTS as say between the 964 and 993 or each variant before.

I find that Porsche has people brainwashed into buying all these new limited production examples and the current market is investor/enthusiasts vs true enthusiasts. They only know 0-60 and PTS. They think buying a fast car will make them a better driver which is so untrue. I have several friends with GT3/4RS's and I am happy for them but sadly they are useless on the street and I find most advanced drivers are slower than if they drove a lesser car. My son is still passing some advanced drivers in my 964C2 on short tracks out cornering most modern cars even RS's. Although it is setup as a cup car and has all the go fast goodies. He and I both agree that on track there is nothing we have driven that offers as much of a connection to the track and excitement like the old 964. We have driven many things on track and the only modern car I enjoyed was the Lamborghini Huracan Performante, Although I lost brakes at 155 mph going down the front straight at NJMP lightning and was lucky to come through unscathed it was a blast but all due to the engine. The 991 GT3RS was very capable but boring and the F455 was probably the worst experience I have had on track ever. The most confused car.

For the best bang for the buck IMO on track is a 996GT3 cup car. There are always faster and more capable but I don't think we are comparing stats vs experience and they are way different. For me it isn't about lap times or speed but the experience. I prefer to be fast in a slow car vs slow in a fast car. The best most fun car I have is my 93 964C2. It is the slowest of the lot. After countless hours of my time and many upgrades nothing I have driven to date makes the sounds and offers an experience like it. Although it took a long time to make it what it is it is truly analog a real drivers car and just the perfect balance of everything. I was offered $160 k for it and I wouldn't''t let it go. I would be hard pressed to let any of my cars go but for sure the 981's would go first than the toss up between the GTS and the 964C2. Although I am finishing up my 600 rwhp twin turbo 964 RSR build which I have many people interested in and someone saying they think I can get >$700k for it when done. If that is the case I know what is going first. I started that project in 15 and it is on its second engine build but I am getting too old.

Not sure if that makes any sense or is relevant in any way, but?

Jon B.

So many people would benefit from learning to drive on track in a slow car at first. I think it's lost on most that haven't had that experience. It simply makes you a better driver, and as you said I think it adds to the enjoyment.

cobalt

Couldn't agree more. I made my wife drive on stock tires and suspension for a year before I modified our first track car. But that was 20 years ago. I hated it but it made me a better driver as well. I'm embarrassed to say my son can drive the pants off my old 964 and I love to watch him pass guys in the advanced groups in their RS's. I guess I taught him right. He is planing on Club racing the car next year. I think he will do quite well.

928 GT R

Perspective...

This is a rich topic and I'll throw a few pennies into the conversation.

Driving a slow car fast is a rewarding experience.

As a teenager I recall driving a BMW 2002 TI (Dual Webber side drafts) at its limits. The venue was the twisting and hilly roads of the glacial regions of southern Wisconsin. More specifically the Kettle Moraine where Road America is located. Sometimes on th track itself! ;-)))))). The 2002 was basically a shoebox on wheels and mine was shod with Michelin XAS radials that were only 165 mm wide and hard as rocks by todays standards.

The most important thing about that combination was the "Forgiveness" of the combination. What do I mean by that? the car scrubbed, slid and if provoked, skidded with a nearly neutral pivot point. The chassis was more "under your butt" than anything I have driven before or since. It taught me to treat accumulated speed as an asset and to maintain it through corners if I wanted to carry it onto the straights. There was nothing worse than going into a corner too fast and coming out slow with no powerful engine to save me from my stupidity and lack of foresight when managing the ultimate source of speed - braking and line.

The circle of friction was king of the dance. Ignore him at the peril of your lap times...

Babado

I completely agree with your take, my fully restored 1750 GTV will be a blast to drive when it's done next year, I'm not sure get it to the HP of the one on you tube but it will be a blast!!

bronto

I learned to drive in a '74 1.9 liter Opel Manta in the Sierra foothills. Great experience.

belgiumbarry

i had 3 BMW 2002's as dd over some years end '70's/begin '80's , and one (Ti ) as my rally car. Great memories.... fun car with 160 HP tuned engine and very short gearing.

belgiumbarry

indeed unbelievable how well those are corrosion proof. The white ( rally) 928 was outside under a cover for 10 years , ( and it rains in Belgium ) with no signs of rust at all. Only thing rusted was the coating on the ( MSDS ) headers.

This in big contrast with my latest rally '70 BMW 2800 CS.... those cars rust while you look at them. I heard form our local BMW dealer that they had to clean rust stripes already new in the showroom ! Nowadays there are only 2 types , those with a new floorpan or those without a floorpan at all

cobalt

If we are going back that far. My first car experience other than the 74 Jaguar XJ6 my parents were kind enough to gift me because it depreciated from $10k in 74 to <$1500 in 76. Nobody would buy it so the nightmare became mine. Best Highway cruiser I have owned but quickly sold it off due to more electrical gremlins than any 924 or 928 I have dealt with. That lucas wiring was a nightmare. My friend was lucky enough to have an Audi 100LS. A car that was actually worse than the Jag, same engine as the 924's. So we bought a 74(?) 2002 BMW in 77 and did a quick restoration. Fun car but when we stumbled upon a complete rat of a 911 a 71E in 77 we traded the BMW for it and went to town on it. After only 6 years of being on the road the car was a total basket case. Even the torsion tube had rotted away. We had access to my friends parents garage so we disassembled the entire car fixed and welded in all new door jambs fixed all the typical rust dropped and rebuilt the engine and proceeded to paint it with Imron paint. We had no idea about health back then. I do recall it took us nearly 6 months after school and on weekends to complete and nearly all that time to align the torsion tube properly. We painted in a heavy blue metallic paint changing it from white. Climbed in and drove it to San Diego in 34+ hours from NJ. Nobody in LaJolla where we were staying would talk to us since our car was old and not original. Everyone was driving new 928's and 930's. We were probably lucky to be alive but I leaned the hard way why not to lift in the corners but came through unscathed. Got pulled over a few times but somehow talked our way out of it but fell in love withe the simplicity and quirkiness of the 911 which lives with me to this day. I loved my 928 but compared to the 911 it was a far more complicated car to maintain and had more gremlins so it got sold off early. I do regret that decision.

928 GT R

How fun of a topic is this! First cars of 928 owners might have to become its own thread!

Even though I did not take title to my 67 Albert Blue VW Beetle until after a Mark X Jaguar was my first actual title (another story about a gift gone horribly wrong). My father had this horribly rusted 67 beetle and he high centered it on a snow pile on the frozen lake in front of our home in Wisconsin. His statement went something like this: You can drive that car as much as you want. Just put gas in it... and if you take it off the ice onto the roads you will not get your drivers license until you are eighteen!

OK - get this in focus, a fourteen year old car freak was sent onto the ice to drive whenever he wanted by a parent with almost no restrictions. In a tail happy, under-powered rust bucket!
What could go wrong?

It turned out that nothing went wrong and I learned to control a sliding car with a modicum of skill!!!

The number of times that car spun around on that cold lake is not infinite, but it's up there. Drifting it in variable traction conditions and getting it up on two wheels (almost rolling it over several times) became my after school and occasionally, before school passion. Gas cost me $1.50 for a five gallon can and for three bucks I would drop in ten gallons to balance carrying it from the garage down the hill and out onto the ice.

Back in those days the world offered many opportunities for kids to explore risk/reward situations without the consequences of Law enforcement intervention or traction nannies in bloated family SUV's. Perhaps the world was a better place in some ways?

I remember standing on the clear black ice next to the car under a no moon sky when it was 15 below zero and the ice was booming as it contracted. The stars were so bright they reflected off of the few shiny parts of the car and all was perfect in my life.

I might have been from a relatively poor family, in an economically challenged place, but we were rich in experience and freedom.

Gotta go and I'll probably edit this later, dashing it off and re-living it for only a few moments was enjoyable!