Potential Purchase - 2002 Carrera
11-20-2016, 01:05 PM
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Potential Purchase - 2002 Carrera
Hi everyone,
I've been a pretty avid reader of this forum over the past couple years, and am about to pull the trigger on a car that I recently test drove. I'd appreciate any insight you experts could provide.
The car is a 2002 Carrera with 101,000 miles. It's being sold through a broker, and here is the listing: https://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/5862626318.html
I drove the car last week, and it showed extremely well. The body is straight and the interior is pretty much immaculate. I started it cold and listened to it run for about five minutes straight. Didn't notice any concerning noises from the engine. Then took it for a test drive - it drove very straight on the freeway, and it shifted great. Brakes felt strong. The broker drove it for about 10 minutes, and then we switched seats, and I drove it for about 20 minutes. I didn't detect anything alarming about the car, and it was a very enjoyable test ride. Listened to it run after getting back, and again, didn't notice any concerning sounds.
The problem with this car is that it doesn't have any real service records. It's had two owners, and spent it's first 12 years in Florida, and has been in Michigan the last two years. The carfax shows that it was serviced at the dealer up until 38,000 miles (including an engine-out service at 28,000 miles), but then there's a gap until 99,000 miles, when the second owner had the car serviced here in Michigan in 2015. I spoke with the shop that's been servicing it in Michigan, and all they've done is repair the rear spoiler motor, and replace the oil pressure sending unit. So I really have no idea what's been done to the car in the last 60,000 miles/since 2007.
I'm fairly knowledgeable on cars, and feel that I can tell the difference between a car that's been truly cared for, and a car that's been neglected. This car definitely seems to have been babied. But service records are usually pretty important to me, and even more so on a car like this.
I'll get a PPI done on it, but this broker said that the seller and I should come to an agreement on price before the PPI is done. That seems reasonable based on things I've read here about the process - but is it? Because it would also be nice to have the PPI done before negotiating the price of the car.
I guess my question is - what do you guys think about buying a car like this without service records? I feel it will immediately need an IMS, RMS, AOS, and maybe a water pump for peace of mind. Would possibly do a clutch and flywheel while the transmission is out, but it did shift well, so that may not be necessary.
I see the miles on this car as a good thing really - it's proven itself in a way, and I appreciate that these cars are meant to be driven. I would try to drive it in the same manner.
Thanks in advance to anyone who responds! A little info on me - this would be a second car; my daily is my 1999 4Runner. I grew up loving Porsche's, and my dad bought and restored a 1967 911 when I was a teenager. I've spent a lot of time driving that car, and love everything about the 911 package. I live in Michigan, so if I buy this car, I'll probably only get a few drives out of it before it has to go inside for most of the winter. Although if we get some nice days with dry roads this winter, I'm not opposed to getting it out.
I've been a pretty avid reader of this forum over the past couple years, and am about to pull the trigger on a car that I recently test drove. I'd appreciate any insight you experts could provide.
The car is a 2002 Carrera with 101,000 miles. It's being sold through a broker, and here is the listing: https://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/5862626318.html
I drove the car last week, and it showed extremely well. The body is straight and the interior is pretty much immaculate. I started it cold and listened to it run for about five minutes straight. Didn't notice any concerning noises from the engine. Then took it for a test drive - it drove very straight on the freeway, and it shifted great. Brakes felt strong. The broker drove it for about 10 minutes, and then we switched seats, and I drove it for about 20 minutes. I didn't detect anything alarming about the car, and it was a very enjoyable test ride. Listened to it run after getting back, and again, didn't notice any concerning sounds.
The problem with this car is that it doesn't have any real service records. It's had two owners, and spent it's first 12 years in Florida, and has been in Michigan the last two years. The carfax shows that it was serviced at the dealer up until 38,000 miles (including an engine-out service at 28,000 miles), but then there's a gap until 99,000 miles, when the second owner had the car serviced here in Michigan in 2015. I spoke with the shop that's been servicing it in Michigan, and all they've done is repair the rear spoiler motor, and replace the oil pressure sending unit. So I really have no idea what's been done to the car in the last 60,000 miles/since 2007.
I'm fairly knowledgeable on cars, and feel that I can tell the difference between a car that's been truly cared for, and a car that's been neglected. This car definitely seems to have been babied. But service records are usually pretty important to me, and even more so on a car like this.
I'll get a PPI done on it, but this broker said that the seller and I should come to an agreement on price before the PPI is done. That seems reasonable based on things I've read here about the process - but is it? Because it would also be nice to have the PPI done before negotiating the price of the car.
I guess my question is - what do you guys think about buying a car like this without service records? I feel it will immediately need an IMS, RMS, AOS, and maybe a water pump for peace of mind. Would possibly do a clutch and flywheel while the transmission is out, but it did shift well, so that may not be necessary.
I see the miles on this car as a good thing really - it's proven itself in a way, and I appreciate that these cars are meant to be driven. I would try to drive it in the same manner.
Thanks in advance to anyone who responds! A little info on me - this would be a second car; my daily is my 1999 4Runner. I grew up loving Porsche's, and my dad bought and restored a 1967 911 when I was a teenager. I've spent a lot of time driving that car, and love everything about the 911 package. I live in Michigan, so if I buy this car, I'll probably only get a few drives out of it before it has to go inside for most of the winter. Although if we get some nice days with dry roads this winter, I'm not opposed to getting it out.
11-20-2016, 01:22 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
It looks good and I think it's priced about right, providing the PPI turns out satisfactory. The PPI is especially important given the lack of service records. I also agree that the IMS bearing should be addressed right away, along with other PM items you want to do. I'd budget about $4K to $5K for that. Agree on a price before the PPI - doesn't mean you can't bargain afterward if the PPI turns up any needed work.
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Porscheby40 (01-02-2020)
11-20-2016, 01:29 PM
#3
Lack of service records is personally NOT a deal breaker for me....a current/thorough PPI is what will help my decision to buy or not.
PPI reveals/identifies issues = $$$$ or maybe NOT! PPI findings should then be factored in the purchase price (seller fixes or deducts from price). But seller is under no obligation to do so, specially if sale is AS-IS, NO WARRANTY. Then you walk away and search some more.
PPI reveals/identifies issues = $$$$ or maybe NOT! PPI findings should then be factored in the purchase price (seller fixes or deducts from price). But seller is under no obligation to do so, specially if sale is AS-IS, NO WARRANTY. Then you walk away and search some more.
11-20-2016, 02:02 PM
#4
It does look good, it's too bad it doesn't have PSM. Not an absolute requirement but would add a lot of confidence if this is to be used year-round.
P-Zero tires show you that it probably wasn't neglected. While not the most expensive or best tire option, it's certainly not cheap (many cheaper options out there) and often is what a dealer would fit as a replacement.
Negotiate a price before PPI with the condition that if anything turns upon the PPI you may want to renegotiate or walk away. This'll save you the money of the PPI if they won't negotiate but I wouldn't expect to get this for $14k either though.
One other thing you can do - get them to look under the car and read the engine serial number. If it contains "AT" it has a factory reman'd engine (mine does) and if it was done with a late enough engine, it'll have the big bearing which is not replaceable (without taking the engine apart but it has a MUCH lower failure rate, if any at all). If it is the original engine, the IMS bearing is probably good to go forever at that current mileage but admittedly there IS the risk.
BTW that serial number is less than 200 away from mine (620927), Hans and Dieter (and Klaus) overall did a very good job that week in November 2011 in my opinion.
Good luck!
P-Zero tires show you that it probably wasn't neglected. While not the most expensive or best tire option, it's certainly not cheap (many cheaper options out there) and often is what a dealer would fit as a replacement.
Negotiate a price before PPI with the condition that if anything turns upon the PPI you may want to renegotiate or walk away. This'll save you the money of the PPI if they won't negotiate but I wouldn't expect to get this for $14k either though.
One other thing you can do - get them to look under the car and read the engine serial number. If it contains "AT" it has a factory reman'd engine (mine does) and if it was done with a late enough engine, it'll have the big bearing which is not replaceable (without taking the engine apart but it has a MUCH lower failure rate, if any at all). If it is the original engine, the IMS bearing is probably good to go forever at that current mileage but admittedly there IS the risk.
BTW that serial number is less than 200 away from mine (620927), Hans and Dieter (and Klaus) overall did a very good job that week in November 2011 in my opinion.
Good luck!
11-20-2016, 03:18 PM
#5
Race Director
The problem with this car is that it doesn't have any real service records. It's had two owners, and spent it's first 12 years in Florida, and has been in Michigan the last two years. The carfax shows that it was serviced at the dealer up until 38,000 miles (including an engine-out service at 28,000 miles), but then there's a gap until 99,000 miles, when the second owner had the car serviced here in Michigan in 2015. I spoke with the shop that's been servicing it in Michigan, and all they've done is repair the rear spoiler motor, and replace the oil pressure sending unit. So I really have no idea what's been done to the car in the last 60,000 miles/since 2007.
I'm fairly knowledgeable on cars, and feel that I can tell the difference between a car that's been truly cared for, and a car that's been neglected. This car definitely seems to have been babied. But service records are usually pretty important to me, and even more so on a car like this.
I'll get a PPI done on it, but this broker said that the seller and I should come to an agreement on price before the PPI is done. That seems reasonable based on things I've read here about the process - but is it? Because it would also be nice to have the PPI done before negotiating the price of the car.
I guess my question is - what do you guys think about buying a car like this without service records? I feel it will immediately need an IMS, RMS, AOS, and maybe a water pump for peace of mind. Would possibly do a clutch and flywheel while the transmission is out, but it did shift well, so that may not be necessary.
I see the miles on this car as a good thing really - it's proven itself in a way, and I appreciate that these cars are meant to be driven. I would try to drive it in the same manner.
I'm not a fan of throwing an IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump and clutch/flywheel at the car without some indication these are needed. You are talking about a lot of money which could represent 10% (and probably closer to 20%) the car's purchase price. Unless you get some price adjustment you would be overpaying for the car. 'course, it is your money and you can do with as you see fit.
The seller would probably *not* be willing to make a price adjustment, the argument being with none of the above showing any signs of needing attention you are just making things up to drive the price down and would not spend the money on these things until or unless they actually needed doing.
About all I can recommend without letting paranoia run wild is budget for an oil/filter service, engine and cabin air filter replacement, brake/clutch fluid flush/bleed, and new plugs. If at the time the plugs are being done if the tech believes the coils are showing signs of age these can be replaced too. I think you could make a case for getting some kind of a price adjustment for some of the above as without service records the above is what I would need to have done to bring the car up to a known level of course that I would feel comfortable with.
Be sure the radiator ducts are clean and ditto the body water drains.
At some point you can have the tranny/diff fluid replaced and I'd also drain and refill the cooling system with fresh coolant.
If the tires show uneven wear budget for an alignment.
Of course if you feel the need at the time you are having any of the above work done you can do the IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump -- what about the fuel pump? Starter? Battery? -- and whatever else you feel you need to do to enjoy the car.
11-20-2016, 10:49 PM
#6
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Hate to bring up a niggling little point, which may be nothing at all, but is that hood OK? The front corner at the driver's headlight is slightly raised, and it doesn't look like it's a bumper problem. Maybe someone who knows can say that sometimes this Porsche hood will close improperly with that effect, but otherwise you may need to worry about some form of damage. Looks really great otherwise.
11-20-2016, 11:06 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
On a mid-teens $ car with 100k+ miles, you fix stuff when it breaks. I wouldn't worry about changing the IMSB until it needs a clutch. If it's running/driving well now, don't succomb to paranoia and spend $5,000 on it because something might break. Buy it, drive it, enjoy it. Change the oil regularly. If you get unlucky and the engine gives up the ghost, sell the carcass for $7k, take your $11k punch to the 'nads and move on.
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Porscheby40 (01-02-2020)
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11-21-2016, 01:50 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
At 101k w/no history, just because the clutch feels good doesn't mean it's good.
My car did not have any history with it... $93k miles on the odo and the clutch felt great. Car pulled strong and ran great. But, it had a longer than comfortable rattle at start up (even warm sometimes) and we found plastics bits and o-ring residue in PPI. Nothing magnetic, though.
Due to lack of history and those findings, I went ahead with engine out service to do the big alphabet of preventative maintenance. Turns out the clutch was worn to the rivets on the pressure plate side and getting very close on the flywheel side. Another couple thousand miles and I might have damaged the flywheel and had even more parts to swap. I ended up doing the IMSB, RMS, clutch, AOS, water pump, plugs, 160 degree t-stat along with the chain tensioner guides and a few hoses and belts.
Now, I drive the car with extreme confidence and it's running like it just came off the showroom floor. Since purchase the car has had leakdown test and we just changed the oil to Gibbs DT-40. Old oil sample was sent off to Blackstone for analysis.
Since no history came with the car, I am doing my best to re-establish history.
None but the most special 996 models in the rarest colors and special options will likely experience the type of value boom of the 993, there are simply too many 996's out there... The true value in owning these cars is really in the driving experience. You're getting a true 911 that will outperform the legendary old 930 Turbos from the 70's and 80's. Not to mention a car that cost the equivalent of over $100k new bank in the day.
Check that engine number as recommended previously... that might tell you something. And if any shops come up on car fax, call them and ask if they can pull up service by VIN and fill in some blanks.
All of that said, I've seen similar mileage cars with no service history selling between $11-25k in my area in the last year. Prices all over the place... Personally, if you're going to do the IMSB and full kahuna, you should get a lower mileage car at a lower price. They can be found if you're willing to travel or have a car shipped.
My car did not have any history with it... $93k miles on the odo and the clutch felt great. Car pulled strong and ran great. But, it had a longer than comfortable rattle at start up (even warm sometimes) and we found plastics bits and o-ring residue in PPI. Nothing magnetic, though.
Due to lack of history and those findings, I went ahead with engine out service to do the big alphabet of preventative maintenance. Turns out the clutch was worn to the rivets on the pressure plate side and getting very close on the flywheel side. Another couple thousand miles and I might have damaged the flywheel and had even more parts to swap. I ended up doing the IMSB, RMS, clutch, AOS, water pump, plugs, 160 degree t-stat along with the chain tensioner guides and a few hoses and belts.
Now, I drive the car with extreme confidence and it's running like it just came off the showroom floor. Since purchase the car has had leakdown test and we just changed the oil to Gibbs DT-40. Old oil sample was sent off to Blackstone for analysis.
Since no history came with the car, I am doing my best to re-establish history.
None but the most special 996 models in the rarest colors and special options will likely experience the type of value boom of the 993, there are simply too many 996's out there... The true value in owning these cars is really in the driving experience. You're getting a true 911 that will outperform the legendary old 930 Turbos from the 70's and 80's. Not to mention a car that cost the equivalent of over $100k new bank in the day.
Check that engine number as recommended previously... that might tell you something. And if any shops come up on car fax, call them and ask if they can pull up service by VIN and fill in some blanks.
All of that said, I've seen similar mileage cars with no service history selling between $11-25k in my area in the last year. Prices all over the place... Personally, if you're going to do the IMSB and full kahuna, you should get a lower mileage car at a lower price. They can be found if you're willing to travel or have a car shipped.
11-21-2016, 07:44 AM
#9
Instructor
Hey Bill, just run it over to Munks (in Waterford) for the PPI. They have to be only 10 minutes away and quite possibly already have some records on the car. Good luck
11-21-2016, 07:51 AM
#10
Instructor
Hey Bill (again), you could also try Gilsons in Troy, he is also big in our local PCA club for SE Michigan.
11-21-2016, 11:32 AM
#11
Race Director
Hate to bring up a niggling little point, which may be nothing at all, but is that hood OK? The front corner at the driver's headlight is slightly raised, and it doesn't look like it's a bumper problem. Maybe someone who knows can say that sometimes this Porsche hood will close improperly with that effect, but otherwise you may need to worry about some form of damage. Looks really great otherwise.
My observation is Porsche body panel gaps are quite good so in the case of this car I'm not sure what that means.
11-21-2016, 12:33 PM
#12
Race Director
That the car checks out so well with that many miles and the interior looks good, the exterior looks good, strongly suggests the car has been reasonably well taken care of and the lack of service records is not a deal breaker imho.
I'm not a fan of throwing an IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump and clutch/flywheel at the car without some indication these are needed. You are talking about a lot of money which could represent 10% (and probably closer to 20%) the car's purchase price. Unless you get some price adjustment you would be overpaying for the car. 'course, it is your money and you can do with as you see fit.
The seller would probably *not* be willing to make a price adjustment, the argument being with none of the above showing any signs of needing attention you are just making things up to drive the price down and would not spend the money on these things until or unless they actually needed doing.
About all I can recommend without letting paranoia run wild is budget for an oil/filter service, engine and cabin air filter replacement, brake/clutch fluid flush/bleed, and new plugs. If at the time the plugs are being done if the tech believes the coils are showing signs of age these can be replaced too. I think you could make a case for getting some kind of a price adjustment for some of the above as without service records the above is what I would need to have done to bring the car up to a known level of course that I would feel comfortable with.
Be sure the radiator ducts are clean and ditto the body water drains.
At some point you can have the tranny/diff fluid replaced and I'd also drain and refill the cooling system with fresh coolant.
If the tires show uneven wear budget for an alignment.
Of course if you feel the need at the time you are having any of the above work done you can do the IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump -- what about the fuel pump? Starter? Battery? -- and whatever else you feel you need to do to enjoy the car.
I'm not a fan of throwing an IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump and clutch/flywheel at the car without some indication these are needed. You are talking about a lot of money which could represent 10% (and probably closer to 20%) the car's purchase price. Unless you get some price adjustment you would be overpaying for the car. 'course, it is your money and you can do with as you see fit.
The seller would probably *not* be willing to make a price adjustment, the argument being with none of the above showing any signs of needing attention you are just making things up to drive the price down and would not spend the money on these things until or unless they actually needed doing.
About all I can recommend without letting paranoia run wild is budget for an oil/filter service, engine and cabin air filter replacement, brake/clutch fluid flush/bleed, and new plugs. If at the time the plugs are being done if the tech believes the coils are showing signs of age these can be replaced too. I think you could make a case for getting some kind of a price adjustment for some of the above as without service records the above is what I would need to have done to bring the car up to a known level of course that I would feel comfortable with.
Be sure the radiator ducts are clean and ditto the body water drains.
At some point you can have the tranny/diff fluid replaced and I'd also drain and refill the cooling system with fresh coolant.
If the tires show uneven wear budget for an alignment.
Of course if you feel the need at the time you are having any of the above work done you can do the IMS, RMS, AOS, water pump -- what about the fuel pump? Starter? Battery? -- and whatever else you feel you need to do to enjoy the car.
Good eye. The hood gap is a bit odd looking in that one pic. And the hood to fender gap appears a bit different between the two sides. The head light fit looks good on both sides.
My observation is Porsche body panel gaps are quite good so in the case of this car I'm not sure what that means.
My observation is Porsche body panel gaps are quite good so in the case of this car I'm not sure what that means.
11-21-2016, 01:05 PM
#13
On a mid-teens $ car with 100k+ miles, you fix stuff when it breaks. I wouldn't worry about changing the IMSB until it needs a clutch. If it's running/driving well now, don't succomb to paranoia and spend $5,000 on it because something might break. Buy it, drive it, enjoy it. Change the oil regularly. If you get unlucky and the engine gives up the ghost, sell the carcass for $7k, take your $11k punch to the 'nads and move on.
. As it stands I'd be biased to driving that car and gauging its condition while in use. It could be a reliable 996 just waiting for another 100k mile mission. Pretty example overall.
Whatever you decide, gl & enjoy your choice safely.
11-21-2016, 01:10 PM
#14
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All of that said, I've seen similar mileage cars with no service history selling between $11-25k in my area in the last year. Prices all over the place... Personally, if you're going to do the IMSB and full kahuna, you should get a lower mileage car at a lower price. They can be found if you're willing to travel or have a car shipped.
11-21-2016, 10:07 PM
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I really appreciate all the responses everyone. Regarding that hood - I'm pretty sure it's an illusion in the picture, because I opened and closed the hood a couple times and I think I would have noticed it - I remember being surprised at how "flat" the hood fit when closed into the bumper. But it's possible, and I'll look closely at it next time I see it.
It's nice to hear so many people telling me not to go overboard on preventative maintenance. I don't want to waste money on the car - I just want to do what I can to make it last. So I'll spend some time this winter planning out what really needs to be done on the car in the spring. I'll do a lot of the work myself, and my dad owns a shop with lifts and all the tools I need, which is very helpful.
I've been talking to the guys at Munks, and I believe I'll have the PPI done there. They seem like a really cool shop. But one friend has advised that I get the PPI done at a dealership, since they may have a better scan tool, and they also may know these cars the best. Do you guys have any preference, independent or dealer, when getting a PPI done?
It's nice to hear so many people telling me not to go overboard on preventative maintenance. I don't want to waste money on the car - I just want to do what I can to make it last. So I'll spend some time this winter planning out what really needs to be done on the car in the spring. I'll do a lot of the work myself, and my dad owns a shop with lifts and all the tools I need, which is very helpful.
I've been talking to the guys at Munks, and I believe I'll have the PPI done there. They seem like a really cool shop. But one friend has advised that I get the PPI done at a dealership, since they may have a better scan tool, and they also may know these cars the best. Do you guys have any preference, independent or dealer, when getting a PPI done?