Would Porsche invite a comparison of the 991.1 GTS to the 991.2S
03-26-2016, 01:23 AM
#16
Thx for further explication--
As noted in the article, that was a closed public road sometimes used as a rally stage, not a race track. The RS would have dusted the C2 on a track—especially since it had the better driver.
On the road, with two drivers not interested in balling a car that day, I was surprised by how well the C2 could stick to the RS—but that was mainly due to torque out of turns. The RS started walking away on horsepower if there was a long enough straight, but there weren't, really. The big surprise was that the C2 was quick enough to make the pro up ahead work a bit, putting down his handheld radio, which they don't normally need to do.
Was more interested in comparing C2 and C2S to their predecessors than getting into the GTS question, as they're not meant to be GTS replacements (even if they will be for a small number of buyers). That said, you raise an interesting question, and one I'd be hard pressed to answer, and even harder pressed to tell someone else what the right call is. Agree that the GTS set the benchmark for the 991-1 save the track-oriented GT3/RS and (possibly?) 911R. The 911_50 and various GTS models are just wonderful, wonderful cars. And that engine.
New turbo Carrera really surprised me. I think it's something of a sleeper, both in speed and sensation. A lot of people will miss its inherent goodness. Is it more satisfying than a 991-1 _50 or GTS? Mmm. I don't know. If you put a 911_50 or the right GTS in front of me, with the right equipment, I probably would go that way. Probably. Do like the narrower package of the plain Carreras, and the tech upgrades, but that Powerkit 3.8...
On the road, with two drivers not interested in balling a car that day, I was surprised by how well the C2 could stick to the RS—but that was mainly due to torque out of turns. The RS started walking away on horsepower if there was a long enough straight, but there weren't, really. The big surprise was that the C2 was quick enough to make the pro up ahead work a bit, putting down his handheld radio, which they don't normally need to do.
Was more interested in comparing C2 and C2S to their predecessors than getting into the GTS question, as they're not meant to be GTS replacements (even if they will be for a small number of buyers). That said, you raise an interesting question, and one I'd be hard pressed to answer, and even harder pressed to tell someone else what the right call is. Agree that the GTS set the benchmark for the 991-1 save the track-oriented GT3/RS and (possibly?) 911R. The 911_50 and various GTS models are just wonderful, wonderful cars. And that engine.
New turbo Carrera really surprised me. I think it's something of a sleeper, both in speed and sensation. A lot of people will miss its inherent goodness. Is it more satisfying than a 991-1 _50 or GTS? Mmm. I don't know. If you put a 911_50 or the right GTS in front of me, with the right equipment, I probably would go that way. Probably. Do like the narrower package of the plain Carreras, and the tech upgrades, but that Powerkit 3.8...
03-26-2016, 01:26 AM
#17
Better yet, head over to Bimmerpost and search for 335 vs M3. Maybe that will help you define the word nonsense when trying to compare what it is not comparable. At least MT vs PDK has a common denominator.
Last edited by trucheli; 03-26-2016 at 07:02 AM.
03-26-2016, 02:10 AM
#18
Hehe of course I think you're completely right about GTS vs .2. Like the 996, the .2 objectively has many advantages. But every single one of us would rather have a 993.
03-26-2016, 12:12 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
You must have been imbibing from your avatar when writing your assertions because they are certainly not based on fact.
You should be proud of your GTS, it's a nice car. That being said, it's last generation technology unfortunately.
PS My 991.2S will be my 8th new Porsche and each new one was better than the one traded (2013 991.1 S Cab).
03-26-2016, 04:07 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
03-26-2016, 04:20 PM
#21
What? No. Compared to modern 911s, the 993 feels like driving a moderately fast UPS truck. Other than the overall increase in size, most of the changes since then have been for the better. The move to turbos is arguably the biggest potential exception, but I'd still take a 991.2.
03-26-2016, 05:59 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
No, I wouldn't say that, for the same reason I'd prefer to own a fiberglass 308GTB over a 348tb. Make it a 996tt and that calculation will change. 
The 996.1s were very successful -- something a lot of critics tend to forget -- but they were also cost-reduced to the point of damaging the brand as a whole. And I don't like their styling any more than most people do. The 993 is the last of a long line of air-cooled classic 911s and I respect that legacy, even if it's not what I'd pick as a daily driver.
I tried to fall in love with the 993 when they were new, but just couldn't make the hormones flow. It would be worth owning one as an occasional driver and full-time work of art. But I can't afford to run a museum, so... I'll take a 981 or 991.
More to the point, I don't think it's fair to say that 993:996 :: 991.1:991.2.
The 996.1s were very successful -- something a lot of critics tend to forget -- but they were also cost-reduced to the point of damaging the brand as a whole. And I don't like their styling any more than most people do. The 993 is the last of a long line of air-cooled classic 911s and I respect that legacy, even if it's not what I'd pick as a daily driver.
I tried to fall in love with the 993 when they were new, but just couldn't make the hormones flow. It would be worth owning one as an occasional driver and full-time work of art. But I can't afford to run a museum, so... I'll take a 981 or 991.
More to the point, I don't think it's fair to say that 993:996 :: 991.1:991.2.
03-26-2016, 06:28 PM
#24
03-26-2016, 07:50 PM
#25
The better comparison in that case would be a 991.2S and the Turbo S. I don't think the M3 has only 10HP more than the 335.
You must have been imbibing from your avatar when writing your assertions because they are certainly not based on fact.
You should be proud of your GTS, it's a nice car. That being said, it's last generation technology unfortunately.
PS My 991.2S will be my 8th new Porsche and each new one was better than the one traded (2013 991.1 S Cab).
You must have been imbibing from your avatar when writing your assertions because they are certainly not based on fact.
You should be proud of your GTS, it's a nice car. That being said, it's last generation technology unfortunately.
PS My 991.2S will be my 8th new Porsche and each new one was better than the one traded (2013 991.1 S Cab).
First, the M before the 3 is there for a reason. My opinions are based on facts, I am a 51 year old experience driver and no troller. I drove the 991.2 S and I can say for sure that the 991 GTS is a much better car than the 991.2. Simple as that! If your opinion is based on the PCM and steering wheel I will agree with you, I would even give you the PDk, but that's just a software update. Other than that I'll take the last generation car any day.
03-26-2016, 09:15 PM
#26
Burning Brakes
First, the M before the 3 is there for a reason. My opinions are based on facts, I am a 51 year old experience driver and no troller. I drove the 991.2 S and I can say for sure that the 991 GTS is a much better car than the 991.2. Simple as that! If your opinion is based on the PCM and steering wheel I will agree with you, I would even give you the PDk, but that's just a software update. Other than that I'll take the last generation car any day.
Take a look at what I have coming in next week.
porsche-code.com/PHPTHF89
03-26-2016, 09:42 PM
#27
Turbos produce torque at low rpm and small displacement NA engines don't. Turbo engines are easily tuned and the .2 will easily reach 500 HP with a chip upgrade. You also forgot RW steering and and an extra inch of rubber on the road in the rear plus a much upgraded PCM. I have not driven these new cars but I doubt that I will be disappointed.
RWS would be cool, but I believe the extra inch of rubber you speak of is the inch that the 4/GTS already had.
03-27-2016, 11:57 AM
#28
Banned
Turbos produce torque at low rpm and small displacement NA engines don't. Turbo engines are easily tuned and the .2 will easily reach 500 HP with a chip upgrade. You also forgot RW steering and and an extra inch of rubber on the road in the rear plus a much upgraded PCM. I have not driven these new cars but I doubt that I will be disappointed.
Take a look at what I have coming in next week.
porsche-code.com/PHPTHF89
Take a look at what I have coming in next week.
porsche-code.com/PHPTHF89
I don't believe the GTS suffers from lack of power though. Its fast as hell in current form and more than enough for me. It carries momentum very well while having a steady torque curve. To some it won't feel as fast because of the torque curve but rest assured that it is.
How much is enough is a personal decision and if you feel compelled to bump boost than its good to have that option.
Sure RWS is a plus to some but I personally wouldn't want it on my GTS. It's probably a necessity on the turbo because of the extra weight in the rear. Without it on the new car. The GTS would handle much better. GTS still might handle better even with RWS on the new car but it has yet to be determined. I believe its a must tick option on the new car because without it the handling will suffer greatly over its predecessor. Considering cost it also drives up the price.
Sure PCM is better. The auto industry as a whole is behind in the latest electronics and I don't feel this is a great leap foward.
In an age where we are accustomed to going foward and not sacrificing anything. I feel that the trend has come to an end because of outside influences. Sure engineers are working very hard to insure that all people are pleased. Enthusiasts as well as activists. In my honest opinion I believe this is one of those one step back for two steps foward moments. I'm sure it will work itself out eventually but something will definitely be lost in the transition.
03-27-2016, 01:03 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
I think the weight difference is 30 lbs. There were some improvements in the suspension and brakes that should offset the small weight gain. They also went to a bigger rear wheels (.5 in) and 1 in on the rear tires. That alone was enough to equal the driving dynamics with the previous model. The availability of RWS , according to most reviewers, make this car superior.
The next six months will tell the story when the car is tested more robustly against previous models and and other makes.
In my case, it is all speculation, since I have not driven the 991.2. In any event, with my driving skills, there is no way I will be able to tell the difference with any of these cars. I'm arguing this just to make noise.
The next six months will tell the story when the car is tested more robustly against previous models and and other makes.
In my case, it is all speculation, since I have not driven the 991.2. In any event, with my driving skills, there is no way I will be able to tell the difference with any of these cars. I'm arguing this just to make noise.
Last edited by petee1997; 03-27-2016 at 01:51 PM.
03-27-2016, 01:23 PM
#30
Banned
I think the weight difference is 80 lbs. There were some improvements in the suspension and brakes that should offset the small weight gain. They also went to a bigger rear wheels (.5 in) and 1 in on the rear tires. That alone was enough to equal the driving dynamics with the previous model. The availability of RWS , according to most reviewers, make this car superior.
The next six months will tell the story when the car is tested more robustly against previous models and and other makes.
In my case, it is all speculation, since I have not driven the 991.2. In any event, with my driving skills, there is no way I will be able to tell the difference with any of these cars. I'm arguing this just to make noise.
The next six months will tell the story when the car is tested more robustly against previous models and and other makes.
In my case, it is all speculation, since I have not driven the 991.2. In any event, with my driving skills, there is no way I will be able to tell the difference with any of these cars. I'm arguing this just to make noise.