Slightly OT: W5 expose of Garages
04-13-2011, 11:58 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
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04-14-2011, 07:03 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
W5 sells sensationalism. They generally pull a vacuum hose which causes symptoms that could be diagnosed in many ways. And if you come into a shop saying "check everything" most every shop will recommend something.
The industry usually get's a head's up that W5 is coming around and there's no excuse for lying to, or attempting to rip off, the customer. I'd fire a tech if I was convinced he was trying to rip off my customers. I"d rather have 5 happy customers than 10 pissed ones.
The industry usually get's a head's up that W5 is coming around and there's no excuse for lying to, or attempting to rip off, the customer. I'd fire a tech if I was convinced he was trying to rip off my customers. I"d rather have 5 happy customers than 10 pissed ones.
04-14-2011, 10:53 PM
#33
Captain Obvious
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There is no doubt that some of the shops on the report were crooked, but there was something that didn't sit well with me about W5's methods. Car parts are consumable - they begin to wear the moment they are put in to use. Although all would agree that a broken part needs replacing, the point at which a worn part needs to be replaced is a matter of opinion. That is why you want a quality technician. You want your technician to apply his or her experience to replace worn parts before they become dangerous or detrimental to performance, but not when they are still okay.
The technician hired by W5 was offering his opinion about the servicability of the parts replaced. There are circumstances where another technician may disagree and not be dishonest or crooked. In the case of the battery, W5's technician said it was fine, but when they put it on their own tester, it showed voltage under 12. Seems to me that battery voltage should be 12+. Does replacing it mean the shop was dishonest?
The technician hired by W5 was offering his opinion about the servicability of the parts replaced. There are circumstances where another technician may disagree and not be dishonest or crooked. In the case of the battery, W5's technician said it was fine, but when they put it on their own tester, it showed voltage under 12. Seems to me that battery voltage should be 12+. Does replacing it mean the shop was dishonest?
As for each technician's oppinion, well it is subjective but if they are hones, thsi will only be an issue if the part is broderline on failing. If a perfectly goood part is being replaced because the mechanic thinks it has faild, is chearly pushed by the shop. All these crooks try hiding behind the " in my oppinion" line, but that all BS!
04-14-2011, 11:18 PM
#34
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The manual for a dodge caravan states to replace the spark plugs at 140,000k. That for most people is 7 or 8 years, maybe more. If the plugs are left in there for many years to reach the 140K mark, they in all probability will break upon removal. I've had several that have. If they are recommended to be replaced at 110,000kby the mechanic due to corrosion reasons, is that mechanic being dishonest in saying that they should be replaced? You can pay .8 hours now to do them while they will come out, or if you wait, it will probably cost you alot more when they break? your choice.
If the rotors on a car are warped and need replacing, would you replace just the rotors and leave the pads alone? Have old unevely worn pads run on new rotors? Not likely. I have to warranty my work for 100 days and if I put just rotors on, the vehicle will come back with a squeal,or soft pedal, and guess what? I will end up buying the pads for the customer's car myself. We have to warranty our work for 100 days so we can't do half assed work. If you want just rotors, go to some backyard guy that offers absolutely no warranty, because I won't do it. It's a matter of doing the job right the first time and not having the car come back. If a battery is marginal, replace it. If you don;t and the car comes back,with a problem within 100 days, who will pay for the battery when it comes back? I guarantee you it won't be the customer. Either the shop will or the mechanic will have to. I could go on about examples that i've seen in the shop. Most people do not want to spend a cent on their car unless they absolutely have to, and then they want it as cheap as possible. Well at $100 an hour, nothing is cheap.
If the rotors on a car are warped and need replacing, would you replace just the rotors and leave the pads alone? Have old unevely worn pads run on new rotors? Not likely. I have to warranty my work for 100 days and if I put just rotors on, the vehicle will come back with a squeal,or soft pedal, and guess what? I will end up buying the pads for the customer's car myself. We have to warranty our work for 100 days so we can't do half assed work. If you want just rotors, go to some backyard guy that offers absolutely no warranty, because I won't do it. It's a matter of doing the job right the first time and not having the car come back. If a battery is marginal, replace it. If you don;t and the car comes back,with a problem within 100 days, who will pay for the battery when it comes back? I guarantee you it won't be the customer. Either the shop will or the mechanic will have to. I could go on about examples that i've seen in the shop. Most people do not want to spend a cent on their car unless they absolutely have to, and then they want it as cheap as possible. Well at $100 an hour, nothing is cheap.
04-14-2011, 11:32 PM
#35
Drifting
No problem Sultan, there are a few of us who lend each other a hand around Markham... mostly BMW guys tho but it's all good as we will work on any brand and each has different skills. If you have something on your car that you want to do and you have a manual or good instructions I'm willing to help you out when and if I can.
04-14-2011, 11:46 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
The manual for a dodge caravan states to replace the spark plugs at 140,000k. That for most people is 7 or 8 years, maybe more. If the plugs are left in there for many years to reach the 140K mark, they in all probability will break upon removal. I've had several that have. If they are recommended to be replaced at 110,000kby the mechanic due to corrosion reasons, is that mechanic being dishonest in saying that they should be replaced? You can pay .8 hours now to do them while they will come out, or if you wait, it will probably cost you alot more when they break? your choice.
If the rotors on a car are warped and need replacing, would you replace just the rotors and leave the pads alone? Have old unevely worn pads run on new rotors? Not likely. I have to warranty my work for 100 days and if I put just rotors on, the vehicle will come back with a squeal,or soft pedal, and guess what? I will end up buying the pads for the customer's car myself. We have to warranty our work for 100 days so we can't do half assed work. If you want just rotors, go to some backyard guy that offers absolutely no warranty, because I won't do it. It's a matter of doing the job right the first time and not having the car come back. If a battery is marginal, replace it. If you don;t and the car comes back,with a problem within 100 days, who will pay for the battery when it comes back? I guarantee you it won't be the customer. Either the shop will or the mechanic will have to. I could go on about examples that i've seen in the shop. Most people do not want to spend a cent on their car unless they absolutely have to, and then they want it as cheap as possible. Well at $100 an hour, nothing is cheap.
If the rotors on a car are warped and need replacing, would you replace just the rotors and leave the pads alone? Have old unevely worn pads run on new rotors? Not likely. I have to warranty my work for 100 days and if I put just rotors on, the vehicle will come back with a squeal,or soft pedal, and guess what? I will end up buying the pads for the customer's car myself. We have to warranty our work for 100 days so we can't do half assed work. If you want just rotors, go to some backyard guy that offers absolutely no warranty, because I won't do it. It's a matter of doing the job right the first time and not having the car come back. If a battery is marginal, replace it. If you don;t and the car comes back,with a problem within 100 days, who will pay for the battery when it comes back? I guarantee you it won't be the customer. Either the shop will or the mechanic will have to. I could go on about examples that i've seen in the shop. Most people do not want to spend a cent on their car unless they absolutely have to, and then they want it as cheap as possible. Well at $100 an hour, nothing is cheap.
04-15-2011, 12:42 AM
#37
Drifting
GTI,
Great post.
I am one of those who hates spending money on Maintenance.
2hr labour charge is about 1/2 day take home pay for me (well after RRSP contributions, extended health , CCP, EI., now GAS to get to work etc etc)
That's where I'm coming from..... Each time I can't fix my car myself, it puts me close to a day away from realizing my dream of being a ski bum in BC, or golfer on the Champions tour
(and I want to get out of this full time work business by the time I hit 50.) I have a 4th yr student and she is going to start full time with a shoppers drug mart soon... we calculated it out. If she wants out by mid 50's, she embarks on her 6500 day journey called 'career'...... 28yrs x 48 weeks x 5days/wk
04-15-2011, 09:16 AM
#38
The manual for a dodge caravan states to replace the spark plugs at 140,000k. That for most people is 7 or 8 years, maybe more. If the plugs are left in there for many years to reach the 140K mark, they in all probability will break upon removal. I've had several that have. If they are recommended to be replaced at 110,000kby the mechanic due to corrosion reasons, is that mechanic being dishonest in saying that they should be replaced? You can pay .8 hours now to do them while they will come out, or if you wait, it will probably cost you alot more when they break? your choice.
If the rotors on a car are warped and need replacing, would you replace just the rotors and leave the pads alone? Have old unevely worn pads run on new rotors? Not likely. I have to warranty my work for 100 days and if I put just rotors on, the vehicle will come back with a squeal,or soft pedal, and guess what? I will end up buying the pads for the customer's car myself. We have to warranty our work for 100 days so we can't do half assed work. If you want just rotors, go to some backyard guy that offers absolutely no warranty, because I won't do it. It's a matter of doing the job right the first time and not having the car come back. If a battery is marginal, replace it. If you don;t and the car comes back,with a problem within 100 days, who will pay for the battery when it comes back? I guarantee you it won't be the customer. Either the shop will or the mechanic will have to. I could go on about examples that i've seen in the shop. Most people do not want to spend a cent on their car unless they absolutely have to, and then they want it as cheap as possible. Well at $100 an hour, nothing is cheap.
If the rotors on a car are warped and need replacing, would you replace just the rotors and leave the pads alone? Have old unevely worn pads run on new rotors? Not likely. I have to warranty my work for 100 days and if I put just rotors on, the vehicle will come back with a squeal,or soft pedal, and guess what? I will end up buying the pads for the customer's car myself. We have to warranty our work for 100 days so we can't do half assed work. If you want just rotors, go to some backyard guy that offers absolutely no warranty, because I won't do it. It's a matter of doing the job right the first time and not having the car come back. If a battery is marginal, replace it. If you don;t and the car comes back,with a problem within 100 days, who will pay for the battery when it comes back? I guarantee you it won't be the customer. Either the shop will or the mechanic will have to. I could go on about examples that i've seen in the shop. Most people do not want to spend a cent on their car unless they absolutely have to, and then they want it as cheap as possible. Well at $100 an hour, nothing is cheap.
04-15-2011, 09:39 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
There really is a broad range of competence ( I'll call it that rather than dishonesty) among auto mechanics and the service advisors. The Indy shop that services my van do a great job and what I really like is they offer a list of items that should be attended to at future visits. As well they don't do work if it's not needed and that buys them big points and REFERRALS. At 100,000 I asked them to change the plugs, turns out it wasn't required. At 150,000 I asked again, not required. Finally did them at 216,000.
On the other hand a service advisor at a dealership in Hamilton suggested changing plugs on a company car. it had 20,000 on the odo. Did we ever go back, NOT, did we tell everyone, YES.
On the other hand a service advisor at a dealership in Hamilton suggested changing plugs on a company car. it had 20,000 on the odo. Did we ever go back, NOT, did we tell everyone, YES.
04-15-2011, 11:22 AM
#40
Although there were some clear instances of fraud in the article and in the other stories above (and I say there's absolutely no excuse for flat-out lying) I can see some logic in a technician doing a quick once-over and then suggesting the most logical cause, even if he isn't certain that it will fix the problem.
The truth is, parts are generally cheaper than labour. It's often cheaper to start replacing parts until the problem is isolated rather than tearing down a car to find the cause. Customers resent it because they have to pay for it, of course, and that's fair. But you'll see that when a problem is covered by warranty, shops will do this for sure because, on average, it is an efficient way to find a problem.
One example I always share:
My internet was slow/failing one saturday morning. I call rogers and there was a tech at my house within an hour. I explained my symptoms and he didn't even test anything, he simply went straight to replacing the cable line from the pole to my house. In his experience, that was the 90% solution and his cost for 30ft of cable was far less than the cost of his time to test lines all over my house. He was right, and I haven't had a problem since. If he had been wrong, at least he had eliminated the line as being the problem not to mention replacing a part that might (would) eventually fail.
In this case, he could bet the company's money and replaced the line. On average it saves the company money. If I was paying do you think I would have been happy with his approach? No way.
The truth is, parts are generally cheaper than labour. It's often cheaper to start replacing parts until the problem is isolated rather than tearing down a car to find the cause. Customers resent it because they have to pay for it, of course, and that's fair. But you'll see that when a problem is covered by warranty, shops will do this for sure because, on average, it is an efficient way to find a problem.
One example I always share:
My internet was slow/failing one saturday morning. I call rogers and there was a tech at my house within an hour. I explained my symptoms and he didn't even test anything, he simply went straight to replacing the cable line from the pole to my house. In his experience, that was the 90% solution and his cost for 30ft of cable was far less than the cost of his time to test lines all over my house. He was right, and I haven't had a problem since. If he had been wrong, at least he had eliminated the line as being the problem not to mention replacing a part that might (would) eventually fail.
In this case, he could bet the company's money and replaced the line. On average it saves the company money. If I was paying do you think I would have been happy with his approach? No way.
04-15-2011, 10:51 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
"A little sickening" would be an understatement.
I've seen reports like that before. Marketplace comes to mind and it seems that the service industry, be it automotive repair, home repair or what have you, will always get a much deserved bloody nose.
I'm happy and lucky that I do not have to rely on any of those clowns.
I was rolling in laughter at some of the statements made in that video by the service reps.
I've seen reports like that before. Marketplace comes to mind and it seems that the service industry, be it automotive repair, home repair or what have you, will always get a much deserved bloody nose.
I'm happy and lucky that I do not have to rely on any of those clowns.
I was rolling in laughter at some of the statements made in that video by the service reps.
04-15-2011, 11:36 PM
#43
Good investigation, but nothing new here I think... Anybody noticed that the 1st Green+Ross garage is the one on Queensway?
I do my own work whenever I can. Part of it is wanting to save a buck, part of it is controlling the scope of work, big part of it is knowing that the wheel is not going to fall off next time I push through a corner. Just like managing a portofolio, nobody cares about you as much as yourself.
Changed the ignition switch on my car last weekend. $10 part, 1 hour of work. From what I could see on Renntech, people were getting quoted $500+ for the work. I didn't validate this information by actually asking for a quote, but the difference is huge...
I do my own work whenever I can. Part of it is wanting to save a buck, part of it is controlling the scope of work, big part of it is knowing that the wheel is not going to fall off next time I push through a corner. Just like managing a portofolio, nobody cares about you as much as yourself.
Changed the ignition switch on my car last weekend. $10 part, 1 hour of work. From what I could see on Renntech, people were getting quoted $500+ for the work. I didn't validate this information by actually asking for a quote, but the difference is huge...
04-16-2011, 09:06 AM
#44
04-16-2011, 09:44 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
That Honda strut scam was another good one.
I have a 1999 Honda CR-V. I only replaced my struts because I had already bought them well over a year ago and finally had time to install them. With about 190K kilometers on the original units, you'd think they were worn out. Wrong! Oh well, at least I am good till the car drops...if the KYBs are as good as OEM.
You know, if you screwed the government out of $1000 in taxes smuggling stuff across the border, you'd pay double the tax as a fine or even have the vehicle confiscated. Funny how the government does not crack down on garage fraud.
A co-worker got taken at CTC for over $600. His "engine check" light was on, so they replaced one thing after the other to no avail. In the end, they cut the wire to the engine check light...hmmm tampering with an emission system.
We found the freshly cut wire after noting that the light would not turn on during start-up. He got his money back and the "parts replacer" got fired...should have had his licence revoked and been charged.