Gas in Toronto
04-02-2008, 12:43 AM
#47
Burning Brakes
Jaak
1. Keep in mind that the comparison was between Sunoco 94 and Shell or Esso 91- lower Octane rating.
2. The following is a quote from the document from your own link,
that confirms what I was saying about performance and fuel economy:
"Ethanol, an alcohol fuel, provides high quality, low cost octane for exceptional engine performance.
Researchers have found that Ethanol is the key to getting more miles per gallon of gas and per dollar
because ethanol is the highest-octane fuel on the market. With a 113 octane rating,
ethanol is the highest performance fuel on the market and keeps today's high-compression engines
at their optimal performance. "
Based on your own link to this document, I will stick to Sunoco 94.
John
1. Keep in mind that the comparison was between Sunoco 94 and Shell or Esso 91- lower Octane rating.
2. The following is a quote from the document from your own link,
that confirms what I was saying about performance and fuel economy:
"Ethanol, an alcohol fuel, provides high quality, low cost octane for exceptional engine performance.
Researchers have found that Ethanol is the key to getting more miles per gallon of gas and per dollar
because ethanol is the highest-octane fuel on the market. With a 113 octane rating,
ethanol is the highest performance fuel on the market and keeps today's high-compression engines
at their optimal performance. "
Based on your own link to this document, I will stick to Sunoco 94.
John
From this link ---> http://www.alekpochowski.com/d/ethanol.doc
Now there are a number of variables that confound accurate fuel economy measurements. Vehicle technology, state of tune, ambient temperatures, head winds, road grade, tire pressure, use of air conditioners, and numerous other factors have an impact on fuel economy. Even whether or not the car is level each time you fill it can distort fuel economy readings by several percentage points. Does using ethanol mean you have to burn more fuel because of a lower amount of energy?
A gallon of gasoline from California has around 111, 500 BTU's. A gallon of E10 has 104,324 BTU’s. That is, E10 has 6.43% less energy in it than a gallon of 100% petroleum gasoline. Will a 6.43% decrease be noticed? Tests and studies suggest that fuel economy may decrease by approximately 2% in fuel-injected cars.
Cars averaging 30 miles per gallon (MPG) on the highway would average 29.4 MPG using an ethanol-blended fuel. Not enough to be detected by the average driver. Now the use of ethanol fuel may decrease mileage slightly just keep in mind that the use of ethanol fuel contributes to a cleaner environment, stronger economy, and increased energy security.
Now there are a number of variables that confound accurate fuel economy measurements. Vehicle technology, state of tune, ambient temperatures, head winds, road grade, tire pressure, use of air conditioners, and numerous other factors have an impact on fuel economy. Even whether or not the car is level each time you fill it can distort fuel economy readings by several percentage points. Does using ethanol mean you have to burn more fuel because of a lower amount of energy?
A gallon of gasoline from California has around 111, 500 BTU's. A gallon of E10 has 104,324 BTU’s. That is, E10 has 6.43% less energy in it than a gallon of 100% petroleum gasoline. Will a 6.43% decrease be noticed? Tests and studies suggest that fuel economy may decrease by approximately 2% in fuel-injected cars.
Cars averaging 30 miles per gallon (MPG) on the highway would average 29.4 MPG using an ethanol-blended fuel. Not enough to be detected by the average driver. Now the use of ethanol fuel may decrease mileage slightly just keep in mind that the use of ethanol fuel contributes to a cleaner environment, stronger economy, and increased energy security.
04-02-2008, 01:23 AM
#48
Nordschleife Master
Jaak
1. Keep in mind that the comparison was between Sunoco 94 and Shell or Esso 91- lower Octane rating.
2. The following is a quote from the document from your own link,
that confirms what I was saying about performance and fuel economy:
"Ethanol, an alcohol fuel, provides high quality, low cost octane for exceptional engine performance.
Researchers have found that Ethanol is the key to getting more miles per gallon of gas and per dollar
because ethanol is the highest-octane fuel on the market. With a 113 octane rating,
ethanol is the highest performance fuel on the market and keeps today's high-compression engines
at their optimal performance. "
Based on your own link to this document, I will stick to Sunoco 94.
John
1. Keep in mind that the comparison was between Sunoco 94 and Shell or Esso 91- lower Octane rating.
2. The following is a quote from the document from your own link,
that confirms what I was saying about performance and fuel economy:
"Ethanol, an alcohol fuel, provides high quality, low cost octane for exceptional engine performance.
Researchers have found that Ethanol is the key to getting more miles per gallon of gas and per dollar
because ethanol is the highest-octane fuel on the market. With a 113 octane rating,
ethanol is the highest performance fuel on the market and keeps today's high-compression engines
at their optimal performance. "
Based on your own link to this document, I will stick to Sunoco 94.
John
it does burn clean so its accepted but you all are smart and can take the govt word that its clean and better for your engine.
I ran sunoco 94 since 2003 and have gone through 4 cats. I have switched to 91 and noticed the soot on the exhaust is not so bad. Time will tell if I blow another cat.
04-02-2008, 10:04 AM
#49
Rest In Peace Jaak
Cable Guy
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Jaak
1. Keep in mind that the comparison was between Sunoco 94 and Shell or Esso 91- lower Octane rating.
2. The following is a quote from the document from your own link,
that confirms what I was saying about performance and fuel economy:
"Ethanol, an alcohol fuel, provides high quality, low cost octane for exceptional engine performance.
Researchers have found that Ethanol is the key to getting more miles per gallon of gas and per dollar
because ethanol is the highest-octane fuel on the market. With a 113 octane rating,
ethanol is the highest performance fuel on the market and keeps today's high-compression engines
at their optimal performance. "
Based on your own link to this document, I will stick to Sunoco 94.
John
1. Keep in mind that the comparison was between Sunoco 94 and Shell or Esso 91- lower Octane rating.
2. The following is a quote from the document from your own link,
that confirms what I was saying about performance and fuel economy:
"Ethanol, an alcohol fuel, provides high quality, low cost octane for exceptional engine performance.
Researchers have found that Ethanol is the key to getting more miles per gallon of gas and per dollar
because ethanol is the highest-octane fuel on the market. With a 113 octane rating,
ethanol is the highest performance fuel on the market and keeps today's high-compression engines
at their optimal performance. "
Based on your own link to this document, I will stick to Sunoco 94.
John
*****************************************************************
When using E10 ethanol alcohol fuels, several precautions are necessary because:
E10 and E85 ethanol blend fuels have an affinity to absorb amazing amounts of water, very quickly, compared to conventional non-alcohol gasoline.
Ethanol alcohol is a great solvent and cleaner, that can dissolve engine parts (rubber, plastic, aluminum, and certain fiberglass tanks), dry out hoses, remove lubrication, and more.
Engine seals and hoses shrink, swell, or lose strength when exposed to ethanol reformulated gasoline.
Water is actually dissolved in an ethanol blended fuel and phase separation occurs much sooner. With MTBE, ETBE, lead and other chemicals used in the past to oxygenated gasoline, this did not happen
The shelf life of ethanol blend fuels is much lower due to it's water-absorbing and corrosive qualities. Replacing gasoline every 2 to 4 weeks is usually recommended with E10. 90 days is the maximum shelf-life recommended.
The amount of ethanol blended in at the pumps, is not closely monitored.
Checking gasoline meets safe and legal alcohol guidelines (10% or lower), seems necessary now, until more stringent and protective laws are passed.
**********************************************
http://rxreviews.wordpress.com/2006/...spc-98-petrol/
Who says fuel doesn’t really make a difference? I’ve always been using V-Power as past experiences tell me that the car feels livelier and more torquey with that brand of fuel than any other brand in the market. In general, Shell V-Power is smoother, provides better linear acceleration, and definitely seems to provide the power when you need it (pedal to the metal).
Just a couple of days ago, as i was running out of gas, i went into SPC to pump their 98 octane fuel. And boy was i disappointed. Compared to Shell V-Power, SPC 98 is:
rougher and noisier - revs are much louder now
the car seems to be out of breath, especially in low to mid torque
exhaust emissions smell a little better though, V-Power smelled awful
cheaper
This then begs the question….why? Well, i think it boils down to additives in the fuel, and the amount of hydrocarbons packed per unit of fuel. Premium grades of petrol often contain more energy per litre due to the composition of the fuel as well as increased octane. A simple explanation is the carbon bonds contain more energy than hydrogen bonds. Hence a fuel with a greater number of carbon bonds will carry more energy regardless of the octane rating. A premium motor fuel will often be formulated to have both higher octane as well as more energy.
The power output of an engine depends on the energy content of its fuel, and this bears no simple relationship to the octane rating. A common myth amongst petrol consumers is that adding a higher octane fuel to a vehicle’s engine will increase its performance and/or lessen its fuel consumption; this is mostly false—engines perform best when using fuel with the octane rating they were designed for and any increase in performance by using a fuel with a different octane rating is minimal.
Using high octane fuel for an engine makes a difference when the engine is producing its maximum power. I’ll stick to V-Power
************************************************************************ *******
http://www.teamrsm.com/files/Ethanol_dos_and_donts.pdf
Next on the E-10 Quest For Truth is fuel economy. Ethanol does have less
potential energy (measured in BTU’s) than gasoline. SAE (Society of Automotive
Engineers) data indicates gasoline has about 18,500 BTU’s per pound, where
ethanol has only 11,500 BTU’s per pound. Being 9 parts gas and 1 part ethanol,
E-10’s formula reads like this: 90% of 18,500 =16,650, and 10% of 11,500 =
1,150. Add 16,650 + 1,150 = 17,800. Therefore, a gallon of E-10 gas has
17,800 BTU’s per pound, versus gasoline’s 18,500 BTU’s, which is a tad over a
3% loss of potential energy.
Therefore, engines running clean and fresh E-10 under lab conditions will
experience about 3% to 4% loss in fuel economy. Measuring fuel economy in
the lab never matches what happens in the real world.
*******************************************************************
Hey ... it's your money and your car.
If it makes you happy ...go for it.
04-04-2008, 04:21 AM
#50
Burning Brakes
Jaak
Thanks for the info.
I stand corrected, and will switch to non ethanol, highest octane- probably Shell 91.
Even though most of the cons had to do with more than 100 days for shelf life and
Water Contamination and Phase Separation, what really changed my mind was the
description of damage (over a long period, bu still) of internal parts, like hoses and seals.
I had known a long time ago, of certain additives damaging plastic alloys in the fuel
injectors, but that was 15 years ago or so, when my father was a Mechanical Engineer at GM.
EDIT: I also remember seeing pictures of new injector's gasoline spray, versus damaged
injectors with sevral gas "drops" within the fine mist.
I was also wrongly assuming that they had already corrected that.
Another point of curiosity, is that in your post above, it affects the older engines more
than the newer ones. I assume both materials and design account for that.
Finally, why wouldn't Porsche simply warn or suggest against using Ethanol
in the owner's manual?
John
Thanks for the info.
I stand corrected, and will switch to non ethanol, highest octane- probably Shell 91.
Even though most of the cons had to do with more than 100 days for shelf life and
Water Contamination and Phase Separation, what really changed my mind was the
description of damage (over a long period, bu still) of internal parts, like hoses and seals.
I had known a long time ago, of certain additives damaging plastic alloys in the fuel
injectors, but that was 15 years ago or so, when my father was a Mechanical Engineer at GM.
EDIT: I also remember seeing pictures of new injector's gasoline spray, versus damaged
injectors with sevral gas "drops" within the fine mist.
I was also wrongly assuming that they had already corrected that.
Another point of curiosity, is that in your post above, it affects the older engines more
than the newer ones. I assume both materials and design account for that.
Finally, why wouldn't Porsche simply warn or suggest against using Ethanol
in the owner's manual?
John
04-04-2008, 12:11 PM
#51
Rest In Peace Jaak
Cable Guy
Rennlist Member
Cable Guy
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Don Mills, Canuckistan
Posts: 15,654
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3 Posts
Jaak
Thanks for the info.
I stand corrected, and will switch to non ethanol, highest octane- probably Shell 91.
Even though most of the cons had to do with more than 100 days for shelf life and
Water Contamination and Phase Separation, what really changed my mind was the
description of damage (over a long period, bu still) of internal parts, like hoses and seals.
I had known a long time ago, of certain additives damaging plastic alloys in the fuel
injectors, but that was 15 years ago or so, when my father was a Mechanical Engineer at GM.
EDIT: I also remember seeing pictures of new injector's gasoline spray, versus damaged
injectors with several gas "drops" within the fine mist.
I was also wrongly assuming that they had already corrected that.
Another point of curiosity, is that in your post above, it affects the older engines more
than the newer ones. I assume both materials and design account for that.
Finally, why wouldn't Porsche simply warn or suggest against using Ethanol
in the owner's manual?
John
Thanks for the info.
I stand corrected, and will switch to non ethanol, highest octane- probably Shell 91.
Even though most of the cons had to do with more than 100 days for shelf life and
Water Contamination and Phase Separation, what really changed my mind was the
description of damage (over a long period, bu still) of internal parts, like hoses and seals.
I had known a long time ago, of certain additives damaging plastic alloys in the fuel
injectors, but that was 15 years ago or so, when my father was a Mechanical Engineer at GM.
EDIT: I also remember seeing pictures of new injector's gasoline spray, versus damaged
injectors with several gas "drops" within the fine mist.
I was also wrongly assuming that they had already corrected that.
Another point of curiosity, is that in your post above, it affects the older engines more
than the newer ones. I assume both materials and design account for that.
Finally, why wouldn't Porsche simply warn or suggest against using Ethanol
in the owner's manual?
John
John ... no problem ... we are here to help. Most folks I guess are attached to the marketing & advertising
I read in my 1986 owners manual that less than 10% was acceptable and the "tone" seemed to "look down" at 10% Ethanol. Guess they have to legally allow it to get Gov. certification as well as stop the lawsuits. Read your manual and see if you don't get the same impression when you have the Ethanol issue in the back of your mind.
I always wondered why my gas powered tools ran funny with reg gas and only well with Shell 91 and other non-ethanol gasoline ... now I know why.
I have no stake in Shell and have noticed that Porsche Recommends Shell Gasolines as their fuel of choice. Another way of *ahem* stating that Ethanol is looked down upon *ahem* ....
