New warranty problem on US cars from PCNA........
04-05-2007, 01:53 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I just took my 997S to MCL Porsche for some work done and I paid the $400 "inspection fee" (I think I am the first case that they do. No sure if I should feel proud of myself...)
Yes, I think this is just a money thing for the Canadian Dealer. I feel "neutral" about it as it is not a hugh sum of money (cost less than my oil and brake fluid change). However if the car only has a short warranty period left, then it may not be worthwhile.
Yes, I think this is just a money thing for the Canadian Dealer. I feel "neutral" about it as it is not a hugh sum of money (cost less than my oil and brake fluid change). However if the car only has a short warranty period left, then it may not be worthwhile.
04-05-2007, 07:17 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
I think that the Canadian dealers are stuck in the middle of a fight between the consumers and PCNA.
PCNA is the real culprit here. They are trying to capitalize on the difference in CAD$ exchange and screw the Canadian consumer.
I'm sure that the Canadian dealers have tried to get PCNA to lower their CAD wholesale prices. It is quite evident the PCNA doesn't give a **** about the Canadian dealers nor the Canadian consumers.
Why should PCNA care whether the Canadian dealers go out of business or not they are still getting the same sales from an overall point of view when importers can sell US cars (decrease in Canada - increase in US). They just make more money on the Canadian cars and therefore more profits overall.
And it's not only Porsche that plays this game ... all the manufacturers do.
Remember when the Canadian dollar was at $0.50 and all the Americans were coming up here to buy cars.
The only solution is to take PCNA to court and hope that the courts can see thru this bull**** and make them pay big $$$$$'s in punitive damages.. That the only thing big corporations react to. Opps ... I forgot we are in Canada and there are no large payouts.
PCNA is the real culprit here. They are trying to capitalize on the difference in CAD$ exchange and screw the Canadian consumer.
I'm sure that the Canadian dealers have tried to get PCNA to lower their CAD wholesale prices. It is quite evident the PCNA doesn't give a **** about the Canadian dealers nor the Canadian consumers.
Why should PCNA care whether the Canadian dealers go out of business or not they are still getting the same sales from an overall point of view when importers can sell US cars (decrease in Canada - increase in US). They just make more money on the Canadian cars and therefore more profits overall.
And it's not only Porsche that plays this game ... all the manufacturers do.
Remember when the Canadian dollar was at $0.50 and all the Americans were coming up here to buy cars.
The only solution is to take PCNA to court and hope that the courts can see thru this bull**** and make them pay big $$$$$'s in punitive damages.. That the only thing big corporations react to. Opps ... I forgot we are in Canada and there are no large payouts.
04-05-2007, 08:38 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by YYC930
My dealer just told me an hour ago that effective as of today all US cars imported to Canada, whether past or present must now have a $400 inspection done at a Porsche dealer in order to have the warranty validated. Additionally, all documentation pertiaining to the sale (RIV, bill of sale, etc) must be in the name of the person requesting the warranty work and the inspection to be done......OR THERE WILL BE NO WARRANTY period.
If you bought the car from a dealer who imported it you now have no warranty, if you imported the car personally, you now have NO WARRANTY unless you open your wallet at the dealer............and the Canadian dealer will NOT honor either warranty, OEM 48/80 or CPO.
If you bought the car from a dealer who imported it you now have no warranty, if you imported the car personally, you now have NO WARRANTY unless you open your wallet at the dealer............and the Canadian dealer will NOT honor either warranty, OEM 48/80 or CPO.
This isn't true!
It's true that I'd have to pay a $400 inspection fee and as long as my car wasn't a "salvage" vehicle that has been illegally rebadged, re-VINed, etc then I'm OK. I'll still have what's left of my OEM warranty.
There's a bit more to this but I wanted this key bit of info to get out there. If your vehicle is "legit" (it takes $400 to prove it), it doesn't matter who brought it into Canada, the OEM warranty is in effect.
04-05-2007, 10:57 PM
#19
Race Car
I've heard from more than one source that it was actually the CDN dealerships that lobbied PCNA to keep the prices as they were when the dollar was worth $0.60 US. I can't confirm that, as I didn't hear it from any official source, but it has indeed been suggested.
The closest to an official line I got from Pfaff or DFC (can't remember which) was that they didn't want to lower prices in Canada because it would devalue the CDN cars already purchased.
No matter how you slice it the CDN dealerships are trying to avoid competing with the US market, and the only way they can do this is by preventing imports. This applies to warranty-expired cars, too, as they're not providing recall clearance letters to commercial importers (i.e. other dealerships). These letters are required by RIV to register the car in Canada if it's 15 years old or less, so that includes a lot of cars whose warranties have expired. These letters usually come from PCNA or a dealership, however PCNA refuses to provide them, as do DFC and Pfaff. Eventually RIV will catch up and change their regulations to accept something like a Carfax (PCNA reports recall issues to carfax) and there will be less the CDN dealers can do to prevent commercial imports. RIV may have already changed their policies.
The thing that really burns me up is that we all know dealerships make most of their money through service, not sales. By throwing up roadblocks to a cheaper market, they're not winning any friends amongst those of us savvy to shop the market. Where are we going to go for non-warranty service? Damn straight it won't be the dealership.
When I was on the phone with RIV's legal department discussing PCNA's new policies, she informed me Toyota Canada lost a class-action lawsuit to the tune of $44 million over this exact issue.
The closest to an official line I got from Pfaff or DFC (can't remember which) was that they didn't want to lower prices in Canada because it would devalue the CDN cars already purchased.
No matter how you slice it the CDN dealerships are trying to avoid competing with the US market, and the only way they can do this is by preventing imports. This applies to warranty-expired cars, too, as they're not providing recall clearance letters to commercial importers (i.e. other dealerships). These letters are required by RIV to register the car in Canada if it's 15 years old or less, so that includes a lot of cars whose warranties have expired. These letters usually come from PCNA or a dealership, however PCNA refuses to provide them, as do DFC and Pfaff. Eventually RIV will catch up and change their regulations to accept something like a Carfax (PCNA reports recall issues to carfax) and there will be less the CDN dealers can do to prevent commercial imports. RIV may have already changed their policies.
The thing that really burns me up is that we all know dealerships make most of their money through service, not sales. By throwing up roadblocks to a cheaper market, they're not winning any friends amongst those of us savvy to shop the market. Where are we going to go for non-warranty service? Damn straight it won't be the dealership.
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
-------------------------------------
I believe that Toyota Canada will not honor the warranty on US sourced cars owned by Canadians.
I believe that Toyota Canada will not honor the warranty on US sourced cars owned by Canadians.
04-06-2007, 01:47 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL....guys, sounds you want your cake and eat it too??
I'm all for the better prices and selection of US P cars, but the warranty issue is nothing new.
Same thing if you buy a TV in the US (for lot less too) and if anything goes wrong, no warranty in Canada. Simple as that.
I'm all for the better prices and selection of US P cars, but the warranty issue is nothing new.
Same thing if you buy a TV in the US (for lot less too) and if anything goes wrong, no warranty in Canada. Simple as that.
04-06-2007, 03:39 AM
#21
Three Wheelin'
THE BIG DEAL IS that it comes with a package that clearly states, warranty coverage in Canada and the USA.
I have had no warranty problems with either dealership.
I have had no warranty problems with either dealership.
04-06-2007, 10:39 AM
#22
Race Car
Yep. From what I understand, the PCNA warranty is a North American warranty. It's in the documentation. The TV analogy doesn't really work, because most people don't travel with their TV. What if you're driving your CDN-bought 911 in the US on vacation and a warranty issue comes up? Is your warrant void?
04-06-2007, 10:43 AM
#23
Pocket Sand
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Originally Posted by Christien
When I was on the phone with RIV's legal department discussing PCNA's new policies, she informed me Toyota Canada lost a class-action lawsuit to the tune of $44 million over this exact issue.
Class action suit time?
04-06-2007, 11:02 AM
#24
Race Car
I thought about it and discussed it with my dad (a litigation lawyer) but at least for me, it's not worth the time and money. My issue was over the 99 boxster, and $30K car, just simply not worth it. If one were started, I'd sign up, no doubt.
04-06-2007, 12:55 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Absolutely correct about car warrantly when you travel to the US or vis versa.
But we are talking about Canadians Buying a US car to drive in Canada, there is a differnce there. You may have found a flaw in the PCNA warranty agreement but that doesn't make it right.
E.g If you have bought an SLR camera in Canada and travelled with it. You're in US and it stop working, I'm sure a company like Canon will fix it under warranty. But if you were to buy an SLR Camera from the US and you live in Canada...come on...don't expect warranty here.
Think about it, it what you claim is right, Pfaff will be out of business.
IMO
But we are talking about Canadians Buying a US car to drive in Canada, there is a differnce there. You may have found a flaw in the PCNA warranty agreement but that doesn't make it right.
E.g If you have bought an SLR camera in Canada and travelled with it. You're in US and it stop working, I'm sure a company like Canon will fix it under warranty. But if you were to buy an SLR Camera from the US and you live in Canada...come on...don't expect warranty here.
Think about it, it what you claim is right, Pfaff will be out of business.
IMO
Originally Posted by Christien
Yep. From what I understand, the PCNA warranty is a North American warranty. It's in the documentation. The TV analogy doesn't really work, because most people don't travel with their TV. What if you're driving your CDN-bought 911 in the US on vacation and a warranty issue comes up? Is your warrant void?
04-06-2007, 01:03 PM
#26
Race Car
Ok, so let's say they change the documentation to say US warranties are not valid in Canada if the vehicle is registered to an address in Canada (i.e. bought there for use here). What about the people this is affecting retroactively, who end up getting screwed out of the warranty? According to this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/rennlist-canada/279013-pcna-cancels-all-warranties-on-us-imports-effective-july-1-and-it-s-retroactive.html
that's what happened.
Why would Pfaff be out of business? Dealerships LOVE warranty work, because they can rack up a huge bill and it goes to the parent company, in this case PCNA, or perhaps Porsche AG. If anything, they'd be doing more business, but they're concerned about their sales dept. so they won't do it. The real answer would be to lower their prices to compete effectively with the US market, but due to greed they won't do that. At least that's the way I see it. And then when we complain publicly about it, they threated to pull their PCA sponsorship.
https://rennlist.com/forums/rennlist-canada/279013-pcna-cancels-all-warranties-on-us-imports-effective-july-1-and-it-s-retroactive.html
that's what happened.
Why would Pfaff be out of business? Dealerships LOVE warranty work, because they can rack up a huge bill and it goes to the parent company, in this case PCNA, or perhaps Porsche AG. If anything, they'd be doing more business, but they're concerned about their sales dept. so they won't do it. The real answer would be to lower their prices to compete effectively with the US market, but due to greed they won't do that. At least that's the way I see it. And then when we complain publicly about it, they threated to pull their PCA sponsorship.
04-06-2007, 01:20 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
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Bob Rouleau.......
True.......it is an annoyance, but not a hinderance.......and I am with the Canadian dealers here as well, as I have an excellent rapport with several of them including my local one that I used to manage.......I want them to be profitable as it is good for me that they are......it's not their problem.......it is PCNA's. And they are as arrogant an organization as you possibly imagine.....perhaps with the exception of FNA.
I hope they are reading this........hello Nick and Tracey at PCNA !! Your dealer's may not fight over this issue like they did in 1986 over the plan to close all the independant Porsche stores........but there is nothing stopping a guy like me from doing so on several seperate restraint of trade issues.......I figure the $3K we are spending for our lawyer to draft and file the claims with the competition board is peanuts compared to the potential 5-6 figures of legal time PCNA may have to spend to defend it.
My local dealer is now importing US cars for inventory BTW..........and the reason they are not dropping prices is not because it will potentially devalue all the cars sold........which has already happened due to forex, therefore the horse has already left the barn.......etc........which is why these issues are arising now. Why they won't correct things is totally beyond me....BMW and MB already have lowered prices here by as much as 7-10%.....
True.......it is an annoyance, but not a hinderance.......and I am with the Canadian dealers here as well, as I have an excellent rapport with several of them including my local one that I used to manage.......I want them to be profitable as it is good for me that they are......it's not their problem.......it is PCNA's. And they are as arrogant an organization as you possibly imagine.....perhaps with the exception of FNA.
I hope they are reading this........hello Nick and Tracey at PCNA !! Your dealer's may not fight over this issue like they did in 1986 over the plan to close all the independant Porsche stores........but there is nothing stopping a guy like me from doing so on several seperate restraint of trade issues.......I figure the $3K we are spending for our lawyer to draft and file the claims with the competition board is peanuts compared to the potential 5-6 figures of legal time PCNA may have to spend to defend it.
My local dealer is now importing US cars for inventory BTW..........and the reason they are not dropping prices is not because it will potentially devalue all the cars sold........which has already happened due to forex, therefore the horse has already left the barn.......etc........which is why these issues are arising now. Why they won't correct things is totally beyond me....BMW and MB already have lowered prices here by as much as 7-10%.....
Last edited by YYC930; 04-06-2007 at 01:44 PM.
04-06-2007, 01:33 PM
#28
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To me, the issue is in the past the warranty was still intact if you imported a car from US to CAN or CAN to US. Porsche never had a problem with that since they stand behind their products. Everything was fine until the wild currency swings between US/CAN.
Now all of a sudden for the warranty to be in question, retroactively, is just wrong. Thankfully that isn't the case, at least here in Vancouver.
IMHO, this $400 inspection fee is primarily to protect the dealer from the flood (ha, ha) of Katrina cars and other cars that have been fraudulently messed with and resold to people looking for a deal. The reason the dealer is protected is because if they did warranty work on a salvage vehicle, they won't get reimbursed from PCNA. They get screwed. So the owners of imported cars from any country, not just USA, have to get their cars inspected and certified that everything is on the up-and-up before any warranty work will be done. Once this is done, your car will be entered in the computer system as being "certified for warranty work" and everything is cool again.
For your own piece of mind it would be nice to know you didn't import a salvage vehicle since Carfax isn't going to be of much use here. However, finding out after the fact will be too late for most folks. That's why I said this $400 inspection thing will primarily protect the dealer.
Now all of a sudden for the warranty to be in question, retroactively, is just wrong. Thankfully that isn't the case, at least here in Vancouver.
IMHO, this $400 inspection fee is primarily to protect the dealer from the flood (ha, ha) of Katrina cars and other cars that have been fraudulently messed with and resold to people looking for a deal. The reason the dealer is protected is because if they did warranty work on a salvage vehicle, they won't get reimbursed from PCNA. They get screwed. So the owners of imported cars from any country, not just USA, have to get their cars inspected and certified that everything is on the up-and-up before any warranty work will be done. Once this is done, your car will be entered in the computer system as being "certified for warranty work" and everything is cool again.
For your own piece of mind it would be nice to know you didn't import a salvage vehicle since Carfax isn't going to be of much use here. However, finding out after the fact will be too late for most folks. That's why I said this $400 inspection thing will primarily protect the dealer.
04-06-2007, 01:40 PM
#29
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The $400 fee is a cash grab and totally irrelevant.
If you move from Louisiana to Minnesota the dealer there will not charge you a bogus "warranty recertification fee"..........it is incumbent upon the manufacturer and dealer to determine, at NO COST to the owner, if when processing a warranty claim that the warranty which was originally paid for in the sale price of the car is no longer valid due to whatever reason. It is part of their fiduciary responsiblity as the provider of the warranty. It takes about 30 seconds to do each of the 5-6 different VIN checks online that I do whenever I buy a car...........it does not take 4 hours to determine this.....it takes about 20 minutes on a hoist.
If you refuse to pay the fee......you have no warranty until you do.
If you move from Louisiana to Minnesota the dealer there will not charge you a bogus "warranty recertification fee"..........it is incumbent upon the manufacturer and dealer to determine, at NO COST to the owner, if when processing a warranty claim that the warranty which was originally paid for in the sale price of the car is no longer valid due to whatever reason. It is part of their fiduciary responsiblity as the provider of the warranty. It takes about 30 seconds to do each of the 5-6 different VIN checks online that I do whenever I buy a car...........it does not take 4 hours to determine this.....it takes about 20 minutes on a hoist.
If you refuse to pay the fee......you have no warranty until you do.
04-06-2007, 01:40 PM
#30
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YYC - Thanks for the response. My sentiments are with the Canadian dealers. I am not surprised that they are buying cars in the USA instead of from Porsche Cars Canada. How could they not? The leasing companies are buying cars stateside as are the independent dealers and auction houses.
In Montreal, US dealers ae advertising in the local paper. They offer new cars at prices which are less than the Canadian dealer cost! If I owned a Porsche store here I would be mighty upset.
The nonsense won't stop until prices are adjusted to reflect the stronger dollar. By the way, Porsche is not the only brand suffering this problem, they all are.
Pongo - your comment is not quite correct. Canadian dealers are trying to avoid warranty on cars US cars bought by Canadians from Canadian sources, i.e. leasing companies and auction houses who are importing cars by the truckload. An individual who buys a US car pays the inspection fee and life is good. Clearly the objective is to prevent non Porche dealers from stealing sales from legit dealers.
A US owner who breaks down in Canada has no problem - the warranty is valid.
Ultimately the Canadian wholesale and retail prices need to be adjusted. It was thought that this would devalue existing cars. That's true, but the influx of cheaper US cars has already impacted the resale value of Canadian cars.
In Montreal, US dealers ae advertising in the local paper. They offer new cars at prices which are less than the Canadian dealer cost! If I owned a Porsche store here I would be mighty upset.
The nonsense won't stop until prices are adjusted to reflect the stronger dollar. By the way, Porsche is not the only brand suffering this problem, they all are.
Pongo - your comment is not quite correct. Canadian dealers are trying to avoid warranty on cars US cars bought by Canadians from Canadian sources, i.e. leasing companies and auction houses who are importing cars by the truckload. An individual who buys a US car pays the inspection fee and life is good. Clearly the objective is to prevent non Porche dealers from stealing sales from legit dealers.
A US owner who breaks down in Canada has no problem - the warranty is valid.
Ultimately the Canadian wholesale and retail prices need to be adjusted. It was thought that this would devalue existing cars. That's true, but the influx of cheaper US cars has already impacted the resale value of Canadian cars.