993GT

100% correct that a helmet does a wonderful job of protecting your head against harsh impact, but I won't use/advise use of one at the expense of your neck/paralysis, that's all
3 point allows movement while restricting forward/upward movement during an accident, that movement allows the body to be pushed out of the way of a folding roof, etc, this is why a harness with harness bar is very bad, causes basal skull injury/death, ....
must have a cage to run harnesses, must have harnesses to use a HANS, must use a HANS to wear a helmet

mistermct

ok i'll neutralize on the debate - I can't find any information that supports or discredits basilar skull fractures in a 3 point setup with a helmet. Given that, it seems that it's a matter of perceived risk and opinion.

Aside.. I did find lots of studies documenting injuries/deaths from 3 point belts... and it's nasty. bar+seat+harness+hans+helmet for me.

Turbodan

you need to add a roll cage to that (unless that is what you meant by bar)(half or more) otherwise in the case of a rollover your neck will be upright and supporting the weight of your car...as Rob aka 993 GT mentioned previously

mistermct

​​​​​​Good catch. I meant roll bar and not harness bar. To me, cage surrounds the driver... Then it's a full track car and no street driving 😁

Mr. Turtles

+1 Not that I in anyway disagree with those stating that are immense benefits from a cage however problem is that most of running street cars will never install a full cage in our new cars. Need to find best balance between some safety and maintaining use for street. I don't recall seeing anyone (I'm sure there are some though) running a full cage in a street car that is tracked and used regularly on street. Let's remember the OP was asking about DE/Lapping days.

35Mugen

From what I gather, quite a few people participating in this discussion are advocating the use of a HANS device whenever using a 4,5 or 6 point harness since the harness will severely limit / restrict the movement of an occupant's body in the event of an impact thus exponentially increasing the forces on ones head and neck.

The use or presence of a cage is a prerequisite of using a 4,5 or 6 point harness, however, it is primarily the use of 4,5 or 6 point harness itself that elevates the need for HANS. If I am reading into the discussion correctly, it is not whether or not you have a harness bar, half cage or full cage that dictates the need for a HANS device but rather the fact that you are using a 4, 5 or 6 point harness that restricts body movement upon impact there by increasing the risk of a head or neck injury. Again, I am just learning and gathering knowledge from this discussion as it evolves, so I by no means claim to be any sort of knowledge base on this subject matter.

Nate Tempest

You're exactly right. Being strapped into a 4/5/6 point harness will keep your body still, but allow your head, weighted down by a helmet, to snap forward. HANS protects against this. FWIW HANS also requires a harness to work, although there are other restraint systems like the Simpson hybrid that don't. Those do still offer some benefit even in a 3-point belt, but some kind of head & neck restraint is vital when wearing a full harness.

It's also important when wearing a harness to have proper rollover protection—at least a "half cage" AKA aftermarket 4-point roll bar. That's because if the car rolls and the roof collapses (or it's an open-top car), the harness will hold you upright in the seat, causing your head/neck to be crushed. This is less of a risk with 3-point belts because the belt allows your body to collapse away from the ground in a rollover. (Of course, even with the 3-point belt, more rollover protection is still safer.)

911 Rod

Show me 1 case where a 911 without a roll bar roof was flattened in a rollover? Just 1.

996AE

No discussion on airbag in track cars without HANS

tanner1974

While the below is about using a H&NR with the presence of air bags.... note the comment about having the visor raised which would be applicable to majority of drivers at the track.

http://trackpedia.winhpde.com/wiki/H...eck_Restraints

H&NR with air bags

All vendors believe there are no issues in using H&NR devices with airbags. The H&NR will slow the head down allowing the bag to inflate more. This is better than the head moving forward before the bag is fully inflated which results in the head being thrown backwards. The FIA showed some work that they had done on airbags at the SCCA safety seminar in February 2006. They seemed to say keep the airbag energized but do not wear a helmet with anything that could catch on the airbag as it inflates which could cause the helmet to be tipped upward at the front - i.e. no firmly attached peaks like you see in some rally helmets and keep the visor closed. Another possibility is that your raised visor can puncture the airbag and then it would deflate in to your view port, not good. So, put the visor down or remove it.

Turbodan

here's two.

911 Rod

^^ That's 2, but the first one is a 959 (which I believe had a lightened roof).

Turbodan

good point. not many 911s roofs get crushed. Also I have heard of some but not many rollovers at Mosport.

928gt

This one apparently had a pretty bad day at a PCA DE event.



This last one apparently had a roll cage in it, and you can see how much the cage itself got bent.

35Mugen

From my perspective, there's a reason why race cars require additional safety systems and equipment over their street varients. There shouldn't be an argument over whether or not you need additional safety equipment such as a full roll cage to go ***** to the wall racing no matter how well built or strong you think the street variant's crash structure may be.

In the sprit of this particular discussion it's a question of what reasonable precautions one can take if one wishes to participate in lapping / DE days with their production based street car that happens to hit the track a couple of times a year while spending the majority of it's life on the road.

I'm currently leaning towards a Bell K1 Pro helmet that is Snell SA2015 certified. I am still on the fence as to whether or not I should also add a HANS device to use in conjunction with a Schroth 6pt harness and a GMG roll cage or simply use the Bell K1 Pro with the stock 3pt seatbelt so that I'm not completely belted down.

I'm just an occasional weekend warrior and its not like this is my dedicated track car that gets trailered to an from the track. The past couple of times I went to a DE event with Downtown Porsche they just required participants to have a helmet. It's not like all the cars were required to have a cage, 5/6pt harness and a HANS device.