ProCoach

I disagree. Most people brake too early, tut n too early and allow themselves to be passed. Sure, somebody can stuff it inside, but contact occurs frequently when that happens.

If you take a defensive line in, you will be slow coming out. And this is one of the few corners where you can safely pass on the outside because the entry phase and middle is SO long.

There's only one "line."

fatbillybob

Really? I had a totally different experience. disclaimer: I have raced Sebring 1 weekend as I swing through the East and know absolutely nothing about Sebring, never even seeing a video. In fact friends asked why I missed Friday practice and I told them I was flyfishing! Florida flyfishing is the best in the USA.

That said I race one day took the outside at the green flag. Yeah there is 1 fast line but you can't stay on it because guys on the inside push you wide. To avoid contact by the end of the turn you got 2 wheels off. Some cars try to fight that and in my 2 races 2 cars hit the inside wall trying to win in the 1st corner. So the next day I took the inside and pushed others wide. Not only is this the superior race line but you can also take all the curb at T3 (making up for a slower exit straightening out the track) and have total control until the drag race after T6. That was 4 months ago and how I remember it anyway.

ProCoach

I hear you, Turn One, Lap One is a battle for survival! I was talking about qualifying or just racing one on one.

mrbill_fl

I liked the inside too. because of what fatbillybob says. -but I wasn't racing in a 13/13 group. far from it. SCCA-IT racing where casual contact was common.

on a start, I'd give up a spot or two, to gain inside position going into T1 and usually get it back coming out.. same on T3, I wanted to be on the inside vs the faster outside line. as I wanted to be ahead going into T5 and the long run to the hairpin. *(in traffic)

ymmv.

C-gt3

im learning alot from this thread thank you guys.
i just went back and watched a few different videos.
From proper lift off, braking to turn in, to back to throttle, it's all coming together.
17 into 1 are huge.

fatbillybob

Equal cars one on one dragrace to T1 you would take the preferred faster outside line? Is that against a racer you "know and trust" or is it so much faster you can beat anyone here? It is very cool to get insights from other drivers.

ProCoach

Yes, I would and I have.

You don't get pushed out until the exit phase. There's a LOT of room to take many lines or make corrections on entry and through to the middle and just past.

fatbillybob

This is very interesting as a "set-up" one might see on other tracks. I have raced 20 tracks around the country, almost all of them for 1 SCCA majors weekend. I learn them during Saturday 20min practice, qualy, and then I race them. That's all the time I have. I need to touch and feel things to learn. Video looks flat 2-D to me and I personally get nothing out of viewing video so I don't bother. I learn tracks by looking at corners and relating them to other corners on other tracks I know. I use no data.

The outside pass you describe at T1 Sebring seems counter-intuitive to the standard inside defense or block pass. What is special about T1 Sebring that I am missing that makes the outside pass most desired? Is there something about the topography of this turn that can be adapted to other turns for example like there is a nice groove at the bottom of Laguna's corkscrew? Or is the reason data driven like looking at many people's data that single line through T1 Sebring just statistically gets you ahead of the other guy?

ProCoach

Ross Bentley and I spend between fifteen and twenty minutes on T1 alone at Sebring, JUST because the geometry is different enough from a standard corner to make an advantage available to those who know it and can execute. As pointed out above, T17 and T1 hold a fair bit of speed when approached and fundamental skills are executed very well.

I think your "kinesthetic" approach (learn by feel) is a good one, but you need to look VERY carefully at a Google Earth picture from straight above.

There is a reason why IMSA and WEC drivers pick this particular outside approach to Turn One in qualy and when banking laps in the race. If you pinch the entry, for whatever reason, you can lose much more than you can gain. Part of it is "dead time" or the period of time when you don't need to slow any more, but can't throttle down because you're not pointed in the right direction, yet.

By taking the outside, LATE and relatively DEEP entry, you get the "turning moment" OVER WITH sooner and can accelerate harder, sooner through and out. Basically, fast in AND fast out.

I have studied hundreds, maybe close to a thousand drivers at SIR, turning laps from 2:40's all the way down to 1:50.XXX, and there is a HUGE difference between where people apply the brakes (and how hard), how disciplined they are in driving deep and rolling speed, and how well they progress continuously to WOT.

There's also, as I've said before, a HUGE variation in minimum speeds, even between similar cars, which means DRIVERS have a wide range of "belief systems" in their knowledge and execution of what THEIR car can DO through that corner.

It's fascinating, and while the track does neck down, there is between 610 and almost 900 feet covered by most drivers between the time they start slowing and the time their speed begins rising again. That's a LONG time. It's FIVE or more SECONDS for many cars... There's tons of room to swing around the outside too, before room gets tight.

Do I need to be alongside at entry? (or at least have overlap AND a run?) Yes.

Can I continue past someone who doesn't have as much knowledge, confidence and familiarity with the topography as I do? Absolutely.

And, if someone slower is in front of me, they're on that outside line (as they should be) and I can draw alongside while the wheel is still straight? Sure, I'll go inside.

But that is not the fastest way around Sebring Turn One...

fatbillybob

Very cool Peter! This sport is like Golf but on wheels.

ProCoach

You've got that right, FBB!

When I study a driver in an LMP-C car turning 1:58's-1:59's, they have a choice about what line they want to take...

When I study a driver in an LMP-C car turning 1:54's-1:55's, they DON'T...

That is the essence of line definition, for me, Ross and many others.

sbelles

God I hope not. If one in every 10 turns ended up with me in the weeds I think I'd give it up.

Mark Dreyer

Turn 1 is my most challenging. I was there this past weekend. One basic thing I worked on was looking ahead to the apex cone mounted high on the fence really early, like just before turn in. Amazing how looking ahead really helps. :-)

I've never spun out in 1 but have driven in the grass a few times to avoid a spin.