Manifold

I dunno, I've seen both NJMP tracks having their fair share of crashes. Looks like a lot of runoff in the normal line of sight, but when people go off and hook it back on track, there are walls lurking on the other side.

Frank 993 C4S

Two things to consider:

- Sign up for HPDE track insurance for piece of mind
- your drive to/from the track will be more dangerous that your DE sessions

My prediction is that you will finish the day with a huge smile on your face and so the slippery slope begins.

ProCoach

Being pretty familiar with both tracks, and especially TBolt, I do think that these tracks are in the lower range of incidents per track day/mile traveled. The idea of a "club-friendly" track is very high on my list of recommending them for people who are risk averse. Road Atlanta? Not so much...

Besides, you nailed it when you reference driver error (and by that, I mean the secondary error of trying to get back on track/"powering out" of a loss of control/hooking back) as being the primary cause of damage, not just leaving the paved surface...

If drivers keep their heads, are taught not only what to do right but also what to do when things are NOT working out BEFORE it doesn't work out, that would go a long way.

rhargy

The fact that you're asking the question is IMHO a good sign. I agree with almost everything that has been said here as to the relative safety of these events. NJMP is a great place to start as there is plenty of runoff and the is very forgiving when learning. Listen to your instructor and be cognizant of your comfort level and you'll be fine. Getting track insurance is a great way to just ease your mind. Do it and you'll have a great time.

Manifold

Though I've looked at incident data for several tracks, my impression for the NJMP tracks is based on anecdotal observations from when I've been there. Just about all of the crashes I've seen there followed the 'hooking back' scenario.

I agree that if drivers handle going off properly at NJMP, the runoff is relatively good. But the fact that the runoff looks generous may actually encourage some drivers to take more risk and not handle going off as well as they should. I think VIR has some of this characteristic also - runoff looks generous, but there are walls, and people do sometimes hit them.

For comparison, Shenandoah is track with clearly limited runoff, yet I've seen what appears to be a below average crash rate there. That may be partly due to drivers taking less risk because of the (accurate) perception that the track lacks runoff.

DTMiller

Aww. Man. One of OPs referenced posts is mine. OP, please don't be scared off from this fantastic hobby/addiction because I wasn't good enough. Try it, you'll like it.

ProCoach

You nail the issue when observing that "nearly all the incidents I see involve hooking back on track."

IMO, the discussion veers more towards assumption and conjecture when trying to decipher what goes through a driver's mind when confronted with large swaths of green grass at the exit of a corner! <grin>

A lion's share of single car incidents (like the popular Turn 1 Lightning thread) are due to people a) not recognizing they're in trouble EARLY enough to DO the appropriate thing about it, b) not being trained in appropriate and automatic response when they DO realize too late that they're in trouble and c) not devoting enough study to the course to "pre-plan" exit strategies BEFORE they are needed.

There are hundreds of individual corners on tracks throughout North America that are particularly susceptible to "hook across" accidents. That's what there are often track improvements that, if possible, move embankments back, add layers of tire wall, add additional exit pavement or curbing, etc.

But the primary responsibility (I've become fond of returning to this great, guiding premise lately, after last week at Road Atlanta) of conducting the car safely around the track is THE DRIVER'S responsibility.

To suggest that a driver's intentional abdication or variation in their normal calculation of risk/benefit (that referenced, responsible behavior) when offered a seemingly large grassy expanse to explore if they screw up, ignores that they are smart enough and have their wits about them to do this responsibly in the first place! <big grin>

Good discussion! Be careful out there!

Manifold

^ Couple of thoughts:

- Drivers might better be able to detect and correct errors before it's too late if they learn the basic physics of why particular responses are right and wrong responses. T1 at Lightning is no mystery if a driver understands what happens to a car when going over a crest while turning, and why 'hooking back' can so abruptly shoot a car across to the other side of the track.

- It's not fun to do, but drivers can do a better job with risk management if they take some time to deliberately study the runoff areas at each track. This can be done during slow laps on track (eg, warm up, cool down, and parade), by looking at runoff areas when watching videos, by looking at Google satellite imagery, and during track walks. My own mental pictures of runoff areas tend to fade with time, so I need to periodically go back and review to refresh them.

AlBinVA

I had the same question/anxiety as you a couple of months ago. I recently purchased a 2017 911S and wanted to learn more of the car’s capabilities as well as my own. I signed up for my first DE and participated last weekend. I did have much anxiety going in regarding the possibility of damaging a 6-figure car. I did not fear for my personal safety as much as that of my car. I chose not to purchase track insurance which I believe added to my anxiety. In retrospect, had I purchased the insurance, I probably would have enjoyed it more, would have been less tense and would have probably gotten more out of the experience. It all comes down to a business decision but as others noted, a DE event in the green group is a statistically safe place to be.

Other factors will have a direct effect on the experience such as the weather (wet track), the track itself and the other drivers around you. The most important factor is your Instructor and your ability to have open communication. Number one rule, listen to your instructor. They have been there, have done that and even you will get a T shirt to prove it. The track I was on was probably not a good place to participate in an initial DE. It was very new (one year old) and not very mature or refined. Very little run-off area with jersey barriers everywhere, I mean everywhere. This can be intimidating to the novice. The track was wet in some areas in the morning sessions and demanded more diligence and less speed. Another factor is you may find drivers who are overly aggressive (even in the green group) which may include first timer’s like myself or drivers with multiple DE’s behind them. I had one guy that tightened my sphincter whenever we were close. There were several off-track occurrences and one car was totaled during the event, but no one was hurt. These occurrences did not happen in the green group.

I can offer some advice (yes even after my first time) based upon my own experience. 1) if you are concerned over losing a valuable car, buy track insurance. It will certainly relieve the anxiety level and make for a better experience, 2) listen to your instructor, 3) forget any mistake you made immediately. You will make mistakes, but don’t take it into the next curve with you, 4) maintain a high level of concentration constantly, any lapse will create a mistake, 5) be aware of your surroundings as there will be cars all around you, 6) coasting at speed is not a good thing, be on the throttle or the brake, 7) leave your ego at home, it’s not a race and 8) listen to your instructor.

Fringe benefits of a DE include meeting a great group of people all with common interests. Watching other cars and drivers with great skills in the higher groups when you are not on the track. Seeing a bunch of neat cars and experiencing sounds that will arouse your primal urges.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

budrichard

I'm a Probablistic Risk Analysist.
But as you mentioned there really are no statistics to use for computation.
But even without statistics one can do an analysis.
There are three major areas.
First is your vehicle.
Second is you and your level of ability and training.
Third is the unknown event that you have no control over.
My cars are relatively new and strictly maintained.
The PCA Chicago Club is very strict about Tech and especially brake fluid flush.
My cars are paid for and I carry no Track insurance.
Call the wrecker and chalk it up to experience.
My driver training consisted at first of Instructors that had no idea of how to drive a PDK PSA vehicle. I refused to use the PDK in manual and refused to turn off PSM.
Chicago Club Head Instructor agrees with me about PDK in Auto.
Ther is so much more than just following the correct racing line out there, that for a few sessions you will probably be overwhelmed. But you will learn and become more proficient. Watch the Flag Marshals!
Clubs vary greatly in how, who and what they let go out on the Track.
Even within PCA.
If you don't like what you experience, Stop.
Second event for me, rain on the back part of Road America, I told the instructor I was going into the Pits. shortly after at least one car spun off the track.
Now on to the unknown, If you are sufficiently diligent in the first two areas, a DE should be an almost no-risk event except for the unknown.
Last year first hot lap, I was second in the group, just after Turn 1 at Road America, yellow Whale Tail blows it's engine about 50 yds in front of me, nothing to do but hold the wheel lightly and run through the area, feels like ice, ice, ice. I have to think the PSM helped but as i approached the turn I gently applied the brakes and had grip so I got through the corner and down the back straight, weaved a little to test the handling.
At the Carousel, Black flag for the session as at least two cars had gone off track.
Outside of the unknown, driving a DE is probably safer than driving on any major highway.
If you are risk aversive, than a DE is not for you.
If you are risk tolerant, than a DE is not for you.
You just have to find the happy medium for all three areas that you are comfortable with.-Richard

ProCoach

Very good advice!

Run off areas, potential adverse camber/elevation/pavement changes and exit strategies are all areas Ross Bentley and I make it a point to cover in our Speed Secrets Virtual Track Walks, for sure!

There are areas on every track that have statistically higher rates of incidents. All you have to do is ask the head of maintenance!

The first track I drove on-course (no instructor, no helmet, no roll bar, lap belts) was Savannah's Roebling Road Raceway. At the drivers meeting, the experienced event chair said very explicitly, "if you fall off the road at the exit of Turn 9 (really fast long sweeper) going on to the front straight, make the decision early to DRIVE OFF into the field and STAY there until the car comes to a stop. DO NOT try to come back on track!"

Only one person ignored that sage advice, and there was no movement on the part of the concrete wall on the inside of the exit of the corner when he hit it. And Roebling is one of the safest school tracks in North America, IMO.

And I was driving a Ferrari 250 GT/L Lusso, that wasn't mine... it was worth one hundredth of what they're selling for now. Sheesh!

There but for the Grace...

Quadcammer

I'm heading to my first PCA DE (done 2 in other marques years ago) this weekend. I knew that to track my 997TT or 993TT, the expenses would be high, I'd need insurance, and I may not learn as much because the cars are so powerful. So, I found a nice base model 99 boxster. So cheap if you total it, its not a huge hit and slow enough to add a layer of protection.

Also, since my friends and family want me to be around, I didn't mess around with the safety aspect. Roll bar extension, gt3 seats, 6 point harnesses, hans, etc. I will likely get called a loser or considered overkill, but thats fine by me. Not only does it give you better feel for the car, it greatly increases the chances that if there is an incident, you, the most important part of the package, will come out unharmed or with minor injuries only.

As they say, the car doesn't know you're not racing and even in green, cars can dump oil, coolant, etc all over the track. I feel as though I made the best choices for myself to minimize the risk and maximize the enjoyment. My setup is not necessarily the best or even an option for everyone, but I think it will work well for me.

good luck and have fun.

Kein_Ersatz

Sh*t can happen, you must come to terms / accept that. You will sign agreeing to such when you get your wristband, no two ways around that. Will it happen to you today or someday? That answer depends on you. It has happened to some here and not yet to others here. But no one here can ever say never unless they quit while they are ahead.

Does it happen in "D" groups, typically not, but can't say never. Does it happen in "A" group, probably more then we would all like to acknowledge. Does it happen in racing, most definitely yes. Is it self induced, to hear the drover retell it no, but probably more often then not if all the facts where known it was self induced (pushing 10/10ths, red mist, etc.), but not always (contact, fluid drop, ground hog, etc.).

Speaking of fluid drop. The rain can be a great teacher on a wet track, it slows things down and removes grip, but it can also catch a lot of people out. It rains in the Spring in NJ and OH. Choose wisely in D group to enter a wet track and back it down a lot if you do. Wet grass has been proven to accelerate a car with its brakes fully engaged.

Risk exists on track (and on the drive to and from the track, and while parked in the paddock, while packed in the garage at home or parked at the office at work), luck can be good or bad. Mechanical issues can also happen (money shift, part failure, etc.) with no body contact, but expense none the less. That is why we have/like road Insurance and Warranties. Track Insurance is available and unless it is a 991 Turbo S / 918 you need to insure, fees are relative to the entry fess to cover $50k and under of body damage. Mechanical issues are between you and the de$ler or you and your spouse...

If you can't afford (as opposed to won't like) to write it off, then you probably will not be comfortable on track. If you need it on Monday to make a living, probably not for you until you can get a "DE" car. 944 / Gen 1 Boxster / MX-5 are plentiful if price point is the concern and all make good track cars for beginners on up and can be driven on the street.

But trills and fun abound, 99% of the time it is safe and the most you lose is some tire rubber and brake pad thickness. Best way I know to turn money into noise and motion.

So embrace the reality, mitigate risk where you can (it can not be eliminated if driving on track), invest in good safety gear (the car is replaceable, but you are not) and go have some fun!!!

jlanka

yeah don't do that

linzman

Good option, if you have the means. And when you get hooked, you can turn that into a spec Boxster and race it in a few years