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Rear collision avoidance systems and the HPDE environment

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Old 03-15-2017, 10:21 AM   #16
Qwickrick
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Same goes with lane change departure devices
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:14 AM   #17
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Yes, we will never tell anyone to "turn off" anything because it quickly becomes our fault now.

At this time.e we are not allowing cars with the option to run with us.

Let me know if you guys get experience driving with this option and how it affects you/others.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:03 PM   #18
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Needmoregarage - any idea how hard the brakes will be applied? I have no idea, are we talking all the way to ABS? Also, in the scenario you described with the one car cutting in front of the other - will the system recognize the other car speeding away after the initial braking?
No - and I would assume it could vary by vehicle.

In our MB I'd say the brakes were applied hard in certain cases, but I never experienced ABS or what I'd call threshold braking.

When the system was set for a certain following distance on cruise control, the car would brake when it achieved that distance to the vehicle in front. If you change lanes to pass, or if the vehicle in front pulls away, the car accelerated back to the desired speed.

In a friend's 2017 VW R32 he also had this system. We had a heckuva time trying to figure out how to adjust the settings, and I'm not sure if he ever figured out how to disable it.

Since our MB was a 2011 and that means the technology in it was several years old - one might assume that the newer cars are better and different.

Obviously one wouldn't use cruise control on track. I'm not positive how it works in current cars but I believe the collision avoidance braking is active with cruise control initiated but I don't own a car with it so I'm not positive.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:12 PM   #19
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The braking assist is called PAS (PORSCHE Active-Safe) and yes it can be turned off. Optional on 911 and 718.
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:31 PM   #20
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I recently drove a vehicle with this system, Here was the issue that I ran into. I was on a highway, Right lane coming up on a car, Just as I moved into the left lane (still closing but plenty of distance still) they decided to exit and hit their brakes, I had already initiated a lane change and I had my left wheels in the fast lane and the right wheels in the slow lane. My vehicle hit the brakes! It still sensed an object in front and the closing speed had changed. As soon as my right wheels were in the fast lane It released the brakes. I would never want that on the track. I was fortunate the fast lane was clear. My 02.
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Old 03-15-2017, 03:21 PM   #21
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The braking assist is called PAS (PORSCHE Active-Safe) and yes it can be turned off. Optional on 911 and 718.
I assume it's also an option in Panamera which we occasionally see on the track, and even Macan. I've not seen an SUV at a full blown DE but have seen them at the PittRace 1/2 day DE.
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Old 03-15-2017, 09:34 PM   #22
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We just had a lengthy discussion of this topic in our (BMW CCA) North Atlantic Region instructor seminar. BMW NA provided a speaker to review all of these driver assistance systems and they go far beyond simple braking for collision avoidance and include lane departure warnings (with steering wheel inputs), blind spot detection and collision avoidance with steering inputs when the vehicle detects the driver steering into an open lane when approaching an obstacle. Importantly in both BMWs and Porsche these systems can be turned off separately from traction control, suspension and stability systems.

The consensus was that instructors should discuss the systems with the student and the distractions such systems could cause on track. The goal is to turn them off.

Any discussion of liability should be with the event insurance provider since they are the ones providing coverage and legal defense if a lawsuit is brought. We can debate all we want but the insurance company has the final say.
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Old 03-16-2017, 01:09 AM   #23
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30 years ago I wonder if the conversation over ABS was similar. Now none of us really think about it. ABS just is...
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:48 AM   #24
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PAS on Porsche can be turned OFF.
I forgot to turn PAS OFF one session at Road America last summer and got a brake check at 130 mph or so approaching turn 5 with a vehicle in front of me. Took me a couple of minutes at reduced apeed to figure out what occurred and then for the rest of the session made sure I kept a good distance behind anyone.
Now I have a cover that is installed over the front radar sensor and I turn PAS OFF.
Front sensor and replacement are $5KUSD.
Ask me how I know!-Richard
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Old 03-17-2017, 12:31 AM   #25
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30 years ago I wonder if the conversation over ABS was similar. Now none of us really think about it. ABS just is...
Race ABS systems have long been immune, and maybe it's also better sorted with the latest street ABS systems now, but there's little out on track worse than an ABS system going into its ice mode and suddenly artificially capping the maximum delivered brake pressures to just 10-20% of normal for half a second or more. Most commonly happens when tracked cars brake heavily over bumps while wearing tyres significantly stickier than the street rubber available at their time of release to market. Not fun when braking into a slow corner off a fast straight, and can make for poor outcomes.
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Old 03-17-2017, 07:50 AM   #26
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Are there Any track oriented cars that have these systems?
AMG GT
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Old 03-17-2017, 10:58 AM   #27
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Now I have a cover that is installed over the front radar sensor and I turn PAS OFF.
Front sensor and replacement are $5KUSD.
Ask me how I know!-Richard
what is the cover made of? I'm curious to know what radar can't "see" through.
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Old 03-17-2017, 05:42 PM   #28
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Turn it off, does it come back on when you are in deep???
This is what worries me. In my 2009 Cayman S, even when the traction control was turned off, it would come back on when the ABS was engaged. And, worse, even with the traction control switch off, there was a second group of double-secret nannies that never went away. I discovered this when my car's rear brakes started getting fried on the track. The yaw sensor was engaging the rear brakes as part of the differential braking system. I finally installed a switch on the yaw sensor harness that allows me to disable the nannies entirely, except for the ABS, which I try not to ever get into.
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:37 AM   #29
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Interesting question and I think potentially a valid concern, despite some people seeming to dismiss it. Before the GT4 I had a 991 Carrera S with Porsche Dynamic Chassis Control. The PDCC would occasionally get overwhelmed on track, apparently thinking that the car was performing a dangerously high g-loading maneuver while cornering. The reaction of the system would be to go into fault or "limp" mode, kicking the car out of Sport Plus mode and drastically reducing throttle response and damper stiffness. This of course happened at the most inopportune times, such as in the high-speed T10 at Watkins Glen or the Lightbulb at NJMP Lightning, when the car was fully loaded up and set in a corner on the edge of traction. The sudden reaction of the car's electronics to back off into a "safe" mode completely upset the balance of the car at the worst possible time, and startled me each time. It could have caused me to spin, and could have caught someone else up with me if they were close behind at the time. I was not pleased.
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needmoregarage View Post
what is the cover made of? I'm curious to know what radar can't "see" through.
The 'cover' is not to prevent radar from being transmitted, one can easily turn off the PAS but to prevent the sensor from damage during events. Radar uses radio waves which can easily be stopped.
The 'cover' is metal with a black coating to match the lower front, has locating slots and attaches with three screws.-Richard
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