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Rear collision avoidance systems and the HPDE environment

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Old 03-14-2017, 05:09 PM
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hinchcliffe
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Default Rear collision avoidance systems and the HPDE environment

Has anyone run into issues on track with cars that have the "rear collision avoidance" systems? How do they react, how has the group you've run with dealt with them?

National PCA doesn't have a standard yet on accepting or not allowing them in.

What are your thoughts on it?
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hinchcliffe View Post
Has anyone run into issues on track with cars that have the "rear collision avoidance" systems? How do they react, how has the group you've run with dealt with them?

National PCA doesn't have a standard yet on accepting or not allowing them in.

What are your thoughts on it?
Interesting question. I do know in the instructor run group that if a bunch of us know and trust each other we can be in a pretty tight pack - closer than would be safe on the street with strangers which is what those systems are set for.

An "automatic" brake application from Pierre in the middle wouldn't be nice.

-Mike
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:09 PM
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Turn it off.

Seems simple.
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Old 03-14-2017, 07:13 PM
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Turn it off, does it come back on when you are in deep???

If I tell them to turn it off, they will sue me if they hit someone...
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:08 PM
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This seems like a non-issue. First off it is a DE, are you concerned someone is trying to win the DE? Second, if the driver is inexperienced and wants the system on then they should not be following close enough for it to activate anyway - you and your region are teaching inexperienced drivers this approach already correct. An experienced driver will keep it on or turn it off of their own accord depending on how they want to drive.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by certz View Post
This seems like a non-issue. First off it is a DE, are you concerned someone is trying to win the DE? Second, if the driver is inexperienced and wants the system on then they should not be following close enough for it to activate anyway - you and your region are teaching inexperienced drivers this approach already correct. An experienced driver will keep it on or turn it off of their own accord depending on how they want to drive.
A driver with the system (let's say Car #1) may not follow close, but in a passing situation someone (car #2) could cut back over in front of car #1 after being pointed by. I see this happen all the time, even in beginner group. People are nervous about taking a corner off line, and cut back in front of a car unnecessarily close in order to apply brakes for corner.

If this^ happened, and there's a car #3 following behind car #1, when car #1 is "cut off" by car #2, then car #1 could potentially brake unexpectedly causing a problem and requiring a very fast reaction from car #3.

It's a good question.

It's difficult to keep people spread apart on the track - even newbies. You can talk about this in driver meetings, and from the right seat, but sometimes when folks are nervous and adrenaline is flowing they act instinctively and want to move back on line before entering a corner. In that situation the automatic braking system could be a problem.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:26 PM
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What about a big blue "X" (just use blue painter's tape) on the rear windshield or bumper of any car with this system deployed that is not turned off while on track.

In driver's meeting make it clear that one must follow this car with X at a minimum distance to avoid initiating braking system
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by needmoregarage View Post
What about a big blue "X" (just use blue painter's tape) on the rear windshield or bumper of any car with this system deployed that is not turned off while on track.

In driver's meeting make it clear that one must follow this car with X at a minimum distance to avoid initiating braking system
I think it's the opposite, a car with the system if too close to the car in front of it will autonomously brake. It's not the close car behind the car that triggers it, it's the car that's too close in front.

If there is a car close behind it could cause a problem. Your solution might be workable to solve the risk though. Of course, then that guy never gives a point by because no one ever closes up on them!

Turn it off sounds cleanest. I have no idea if that's even possible though.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by certz View Post
This seems like a non-issue. First off it is a DE, are you concerned someone is trying to win the DE? Second, if the driver is inexperienced and wants the system on then they should not be following close enough for it to activate anyway - you and your region are teaching inexperienced drivers this approach already correct. An experienced driver will keep it on or turn it off of their own accord depending on how they want to drive.
+1

Originally Posted by needmoregarage View Post
A driver with the system (let's say Car #1) may not follow close, but in a passing situation someone (car #2) could cut back over in front of car #1 after being pointed by. I see this happen all the time, even in beginner group. People are nervous about taking a corner off line, and cut back in front of a car unnecessarily close in order to apply brakes for corner.

If this^ happened, and there's a car #3 following behind car #1, when car #1 is "cut off" by car #2, then car #1 could potentially brake unexpectedly causing a problem and requiring a very fast reaction from car #3.

It's a good question.

It's difficult to keep people spread apart on the track - even newbies. You can talk about this in driver meetings, and from the right seat, but sometimes when folks are nervous and adrenaline is flowing they act instinctively and want to move back on line before entering a corner. In that situation the automatic braking system could be a problem.
IMHO what we got here is a lack of instruction and/or being in the wrong group for the type of moves being done. If the driver is not comfortable taking a pass/corner off line then they should refuse the given pass. This goes back to instructions received and group placement. Seems like too many are being passed on to make room at the bottom for various regions. I see this happening at a region I attend. Not sure what reasoning is applied as justification but I don't think that safety is primary.
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Old 03-14-2017, 09:39 PM
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We had a 2011 S class MB that had the system. It could be disabled, and it could also be set to trigger at various distances to the object in front. Not sure how easy it is to disable with more recent cars.

I agree DTMiller - and I think my explanation was inarticulate. If someone cuts in front of someone with the braking system - the car that was cut in front of will brake hard when it senses a car suddenly in front. If anyone is following them and not expecting it (even if they are at a reasonable distance) - toward the end of a straight where speeds are high and lots of ground is covered every second - if the driver in the following car does not expect hard braking ahead, and doesn't react immediately, or has someone on their tail....it could be serious. It could easily become a chain reaction if enough cars are following in close proximity.

Still not sure I'm drawing a "clear" picture (even though I can imagine it in my head I don't know if I'm articulating)
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:10 PM
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Are there Any track oriented cars that have these systems?
Do Porsches have them now?
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Old 03-14-2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by needmoregarage View Post
We had a 2011 S class MB that had the system. It could be disabled, and it could also be set to trigger at various distances to the object in front. Not sure how easy it is to disable with more recent cars.

I agree DTMiller - and I think my explanation was inarticulate. If someone cuts in front of someone with the braking system - the car that was cut in front of will brake hard when it senses a car suddenly in front. If anyone is following them and not expecting it (even if they are at a reasonable distance) - toward the end of a straight where speeds are high and lots of ground is covered every second - if the driver in the following car does not expect hard braking ahead, and doesn't react immediately, or has someone on their tail....it could be serious. It could easily become a chain reaction if enough cars are following in close proximity.

Still not sure I'm drawing a "clear" picture (even though I can imagine it in my head I don't know if I'm articulating)
I think we all know what you are getting at. The mention of the S-class leads me to believe this wasn't a HPDE but a track sponsored event. In either case I would expect this to be an instructed situation. Therefore I can't really speak to the rules under which the instructors operated.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:41 PM
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I was just asking the question with liability on my mind and if anyone had run with a region that had rules against it.

We have had many talks about PASM, ASC, DSC, etc... And this is another"nanny" that could cause issues with "new" street trim cars on a racetrack.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:47 PM
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S class was not on track. I only mention it as my personal experience with the system and how it could be disabled and also adjusted for sensitivity. But 2011 is older technology and I assume newer cars could be different.

I don't currently own a car with the system.

My experience at various hpde with a few different clubs is that new drivers get nervous and will tend to move over to get back on line as they near a braking zone, which could cause the car they move in front of to suddenly brake hard, which will be unexpected by anyone behind the car with the accident avoidance system.

I agree with your points about new giving or taking late point byes especially in newbie run groups - but it becomes a matter of judgement which can be skewed under adrenaline. I agree safety should be paramount and I applaud Curt for asking the question.
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Old 03-15-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by hinchcliffe View Post
I was just asking the question with liability on my mind and if anyone had run with a region that had rules against it.

We have had many talks about PASM, ASC, DSC, etc... And this is another"nanny" that could cause issues with "new" street trim cars on a racetrack.
You answered your own question - if liability is on your mind, then you are not going to "tell" anyone to do anything.

Correct, it is another nanny and should be discussed as such. Just like the other nanny's I am sure you are instructing new drivers to leave them on and as they become more experienced they can play with turning them off (without me in the car ).

Needmoregarage - any idea how hard the brakes will be applied? I have no idea, are we talking all the way to ABS? Also, in the scenario you described with the one car cutting in front of the other - will the system recognize the other car speeding away after the initial braking?
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