Why Nitrogen?
11-25-2016, 04:44 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
Yes, apologies for the typo.
IMO, using IR to take surface tire temps is not valuable. You want core temps across the tread. The only way to get those is with a probe pyrometer.
IMO, using IR to take surface tire temps is not valuable. You want core temps across the tread. The only way to get those is with a probe pyrometer.
11-25-2016, 05:21 PM
#77
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There is a overwhelming and substantial data set and written literature to contradict your statement. While carcass temps are important, it's the surface that meets the road. There is a 1:1 correlation with optimum surface temp and overall grip.
11-25-2016, 05:31 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
My point was and is that a more accurate representation of tread temps is made just below the surface. I am not talking about the carcass. I am talking 1/4' to 1/2" in, which is where a probe will usually measure with proper use.
11-25-2016, 06:11 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
with DOTs the meaningful temps values are at the surface and just below it. 2- 3 /32s is fine.
12-02-2016, 04:11 PM
#80
Rennlist Member
I hate to post more on this, but i was talking about the tire pressure changes with different gases (kind of an oxymoron discussion as we all know there is no differnce), but we all agreed that watervapor or water moisture in the tire at the time of mounting is critical. what you put in has to be dry too..........or does it?
my question is if you are on a hot day, high humidity and you fill your tire with the air pump. if the air with higher vapor content gets compressed, does the vapor condence into water? that is dependant on temp and pressure. as the air temp gets cooler , its ability to hold vapor is reduced, and certainly at higher pressures as well. so, if you are driving around town and you never get the tires very warm, its possible, the water vapor laiden air is not condencing, so does it follow gas law too, and the pressure rise vs temp increase is identical to dry air.... in other words i have forgoten, but is humid air and dry air the same as far as rate of expansion for a given temp /pressure increase?
the next logical way to look at this, is by looking at the condensation or the water brought in by the mounting procedure. since water vaporizes at 1700 times the volume, then that would increase pressure when that occured.. (on the track where the rim and tire air get over 200degrees F.) this is the main issue and it seems Nitrogen fill, if there is any water in the tire , its benefits get negated.
One other thing that has bugged me... i was critizised for my "math" but never corrected... anyone still wanting to play care to find the error that "that guy " found? as i see it......... you pressurize the tire with Nitrogen, and you need to fill it and empty it 2 times to get at least 90% Nitrogen . (vs the 10% air remaining.........even though that "air" has 80% already...not the point as we are talking/caring about the vapor content. fill the tire to 15psi and its half air and half Nitrogen.(or dry air). fill it to 30psi, and now its 75% nitrogen and 25% air................ deflate and try again and you start with 25% air , at 15psi you end up with 10% air and at 30psi around 5% of the original air.... there is your nitrogen fill math. feel free to correct
my question is if you are on a hot day, high humidity and you fill your tire with the air pump. if the air with higher vapor content gets compressed, does the vapor condence into water? that is dependant on temp and pressure. as the air temp gets cooler , its ability to hold vapor is reduced, and certainly at higher pressures as well. so, if you are driving around town and you never get the tires very warm, its possible, the water vapor laiden air is not condencing, so does it follow gas law too, and the pressure rise vs temp increase is identical to dry air.... in other words i have forgoten, but is humid air and dry air the same as far as rate of expansion for a given temp /pressure increase?
the next logical way to look at this, is by looking at the condensation or the water brought in by the mounting procedure. since water vaporizes at 1700 times the volume, then that would increase pressure when that occured.. (on the track where the rim and tire air get over 200degrees F.) this is the main issue and it seems Nitrogen fill, if there is any water in the tire , its benefits get negated.
One other thing that has bugged me... i was critizised for my "math" but never corrected... anyone still wanting to play care to find the error that "that guy " found? as i see it......... you pressurize the tire with Nitrogen, and you need to fill it and empty it 2 times to get at least 90% Nitrogen . (vs the 10% air remaining.........even though that "air" has 80% already...not the point as we are talking/caring about the vapor content. fill the tire to 15psi and its half air and half Nitrogen.(or dry air). fill it to 30psi, and now its 75% nitrogen and 25% air................ deflate and try again and you start with 25% air , at 15psi you end up with 10% air and at 30psi around 5% of the original air.... there is your nitrogen fill math. feel free to correct
12-02-2016, 04:51 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
Do you have a problem with continuing a discussion. this list is a discussion. do you have an answer or comment for me, or do you just want the subject matter here to just go away, or be held in the archives like its a valuale research document.. it's not. Think of the list this way.. it's guys (and gals) in a bar, just talking. one guy that doesnt understand, says, "so whats the net net?" do you tell him to shut up or do you talk more..... welll, if you are late for dinner you just say, i cant talk now and leave.. or you stay and continue to discuss. can discussion lead to other topics.. sure........ this is human interaction, be human here , not an animal.
i do hate to bring it up, as in fear that someone like you would respond like you did with curious reasons behind it. how about this.. you have a problem some one, criticism of them personally, PM them. i for one would welcome private discussion as well.
i do hate to bring it up, as in fear that someone like you would respond like you did with curious reasons behind it. how about this.. you have a problem some one, criticism of them personally, PM them. i for one would welcome private discussion as well.
12-02-2016, 05:14 PM
#83
I hate to post more on this, but i was talking about the tire pressure changes with different gases (kind of an oxymoron discussion as we all know there is no differnce), but we all agreed that watervapor or water moisture in the tire at the time of mounting is critical. what you put in has to be dry too..........or does it?
my question is if you are on a hot day, high humidity and you fill your tire with the air pump. if the air with higher vapor content gets compressed, does the vapor condence into water? that is dependant on temp and pressure. as the air temp gets cooler , its ability to hold vapor is reduced, and certainly at higher pressures as well. so, if you are driving around town and you never get the tires very warm, its possible, the water vapor laiden air is not condencing, so does it follow gas law too, and the pressure rise vs temp increase is identical to dry air.... in other words i have forgoten, but is humid air and dry air the same as far as rate of expansion for a given temp /pressure increase?
the next logical way to look at this, is by looking at the condensation or the water brought in by the mounting procedure. since water vaporizes at 1700 times the volume, then that would increase pressure when that occured.. (on the track where the rim and tire air get over 200degrees F.) this is the main issue and it seems Nitrogen fill, if there is any water in the tire , its benefits get negated.
One other thing that has bugged me... i was critizised for my "math" but never corrected... anyone still wanting to play care to find the error that "that guy " found? as i see it......... you pressurize the tire with Nitrogen, and you need to fill it and empty it 2 times to get at least 90% Nitrogen . (vs the 10% air remaining.........even though that "air" has 80% already...not the point as we are talking/caring about the vapor content. fill the tire to 15psi and its half air and half Nitrogen.(or dry air). fill it to 30psi, and now its 75% nitrogen and 25% air................ deflate and try again and you start with 25% air , at 15psi you end up with 10% air and at 30psi around 5% of the original air.... there is your nitrogen fill math. feel free to correct
my question is if you are on a hot day, high humidity and you fill your tire with the air pump. if the air with higher vapor content gets compressed, does the vapor condence into water? that is dependant on temp and pressure. as the air temp gets cooler , its ability to hold vapor is reduced, and certainly at higher pressures as well. so, if you are driving around town and you never get the tires very warm, its possible, the water vapor laiden air is not condencing, so does it follow gas law too, and the pressure rise vs temp increase is identical to dry air.... in other words i have forgoten, but is humid air and dry air the same as far as rate of expansion for a given temp /pressure increase?
the next logical way to look at this, is by looking at the condensation or the water brought in by the mounting procedure. since water vaporizes at 1700 times the volume, then that would increase pressure when that occured.. (on the track where the rim and tire air get over 200degrees F.) this is the main issue and it seems Nitrogen fill, if there is any water in the tire , its benefits get negated.
One other thing that has bugged me... i was critizised for my "math" but never corrected... anyone still wanting to play care to find the error that "that guy " found? as i see it......... you pressurize the tire with Nitrogen, and you need to fill it and empty it 2 times to get at least 90% Nitrogen . (vs the 10% air remaining.........even though that "air" has 80% already...not the point as we are talking/caring about the vapor content. fill the tire to 15psi and its half air and half Nitrogen.(or dry air). fill it to 30psi, and now its 75% nitrogen and 25% air................ deflate and try again and you start with 25% air , at 15psi you end up with 10% air and at 30psi around 5% of the original air.... there is your nitrogen fill math. feel free to correct
12-03-2016, 12:10 AM
#85
Rennlist Member
Easy cowboy. Even your complaints come in giant paragraphs. I was simply questioning if you truly hated to post more. I would like to call your bluff.
Do you have a problem with continuing a discussion. this list is a discussion. do you have an answer or comment for me, or do you just want the subject matter here to just go away, or be held in the archives like its a valuale research document.. it's not. Think of the list this way.. it's guys (and gals) in a bar, just talking. one guy that doesnt understand, says, "so whats the net net?" do you tell him to shut up or do you talk more..... welll, if you are late for dinner you just say, i cant talk now and leave.. or you stay and continue to discuss. can discussion lead to other topics.. sure........ this is human interaction, be human here , not an animal.
i do hate to bring it up, as in fear that someone like you would respond like you did with curious reasons behind it. how about this.. you have a problem some one, criticism of them personally, PM them. i for one would welcome private discussion as well.
i do hate to bring it up, as in fear that someone like you would respond like you did with curious reasons behind it. how about this.. you have a problem some one, criticism of them personally, PM them. i for one would welcome private discussion as well.
12-05-2016, 02:25 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
yeah, i did hate to post it, because i was worried about the bored "Cowboy" tossing out the dig as you did... I thought the length of the response was warranted. obviously, you still dont get it, or you wouldnt post again with another insult. I wanted to continue to discuss, because i thought it was an interesting question related to the topic started. and your post? what was its purpose? make you feel better about , i don't know, something?