CrookedCommie

In my situation, with the instructor clearly being at fault, all I got was a "Sorry" and an email with the aim data. The PCA group that was hosting the event has not even acknowledged the incident. Like I said, I got lucky that the over-rev only caused (mysteriously) a couple bad coils, $120 in new Bosch coils and the car is back to normal again. Just to clarify, this was not a PCA instructor, this was a Mid-Ohio School instructor, who was hired by the PCA group to help gather data by driving student's cars if they were interested in comparing to their own data.

To reiterate what TXE36 said, exercise careful judgement on who you let drive your car.

caymannyc

There really are some yahoos. This one instructor when I was younger took advantage of me and my car. He did 3 laps, I asked him to swap so I could drive. He said he needed to show me some more things. Ended up doing 5 laps and I got to do 1 lap before session ended.


Needless to say, he did not get paid and was sent home once we were back in pit.

Yellow996

Prior to the Sebring Club Race this year, we were being coached by a pro driver (Porsche and now Lambos in the Weather Tech Series) during the test and tune day. On the first session that morning, on lap 3 with the pro driving my GTB1 car, he radioed in that the car was sliding like crazy from fluid. He brought it and we all looked under the car it and it looked as if the engine may have blown because there was fluid everywhere.

It turned out to be a $1200 repair as opposed to a $20,000 new motor, but EITHER way, I was prepared to foot the bill. And, I was prepared to pay even if the data had shown that he accidentally money shifted the car.

Barring any outright purposeful, negligent malice by the pro/instructor/whomever you allow to drive your car, in MY OPINION, it's on YOU as the OWNER if someone has a mishap while driving your car.

This is a big boy hobby...s--t happens.

ExMB

So you hired a private instructor or did an event with someone where instructors got paid? More info is needed. In PCA events instructors are volunteer positions.

bpu699

i agree in principal, but tough situation... At least in reference to hpde... Racing is different.

Instructor driving students car hits oil, totally get it. Could have happened to anyone.

Instructor driving students car at the limit, crashes... Argh. Unless specifically asked to do so, he shouldn't have driven that aggressively. That's an unnecessary risk with a toy that isn't yours...

Instructors does a money shift at hpde? Ouch. That's a different thing. If you can't shift a car, don't offer to be an instructor. Don't mean to be harsh, but it shouldn't happen. A missed shift is an error in skill...

As a doc, if I offer to treat a buddy for a cough and prescribe an antibiotic that interacts with his other meds, and he is seriously injured... Mea culpa. Doesn't matter that I did it for free or volunteered, or was trying to be a nice guy.

Lawyer gives free legal advice to a buddy. Turns out it was illegal. He is in for some pain.

Electrician wires house for a buddy for free. Miswires it and jacuzzi shocks a kid. Guess what happens?

Two ways I can avoid that situation. Don't put myself in that position, or carry insurance...

Instructors are wonderful. They risk their lives to teach. Most volunteer. You can do that, and use caution not to expose yourself to undue risk. Drive the students car at 7/10s at an hpde. Baby shift it. If the student asks you to drive, and pushes you to be aggressive, that's different. Racing, and instructor is pushing to teach you at 10/10s? Different. Every instructor I have had, has driven my car more cautiously than I ever have at an hpde. Kudos.

My comments aren't meant to discuss who pays for what. Simply pointing out that an instructor causing serious damage to car at an hpde by aggressive driving or shifting, shouldn't happen. I am not talking about racing...

The reality is, for most hpde students, eating the cost of a car would be difficult. It happens. You even accept the risk, that some other driver may hit your car, and destroy it. I get that too... It's a risk you accept.

But an instructor balling up a students car at hpde is different... There are going to be some bad feelings there...

Don't have solutions, just thinking out loud...

RickyBobby

Great points bpu699

caymannyc

I hired a guy, not PCA affiliated. I did the stupid thing of hiring someone just based on his racing experience and history, without a reference check. Other people who I later spoke with who know him basically told me to stay away, that he's basically there to milk people for money and drive other people's cars, preying on unsuspecting people. Great driver, but man the nerve of that guy. One lap he wanted to show me how on a certain corner it is better to "drift" and burned up my tires.

mglobe

This is exactly why people need to exercise caution when letting someone else drive their car. Crap could happen when anyone is driving, but the likelihood of crap is greater with some than with others. My experience has been that the instructors who are eager to drive other people's cars are most often exactly who you do not want driving your car. So if someone offers, and you don't know much about them, run away. If you are going to ask an instructor to drive, make sure you actually know what you are getting in to.

Manifold

+1

Instructors vary considerably in their ability to drive, ability to instruct, and sense of responsibility. The title 'instructor' isn't a guarantee of any of these.

fatbillybob

I'm not so sure. I think there are some who think you can take a reference lap as a target of your make model car on a known track overlay your lap and work on areas of improvement incrementally. The data will show improvement or not. It just seems that this would be a much faster way to learn with zero guessing and a way to encourage sneaking up on limits. What do you in-car instructors think about that?

rbahr

Important to realize that different folks learn in different ways. Perhaps a strict data approach works for you, but I find that is a more advance approach. Early on, generally speaking, assuming that everyone is rational - insert your favorite disclaimer here, ride alongs are a very good way to go.

That said, everyone needs to take responsibility when bad stuff happens... hitting an oil patch can happen to anyone - although an experienced driver should be able to handle it better, overcooking the brakes/tires should not be an experienced drivers problem esp in someone else's car...

There are some I will NOT give rides to, and when I do the 2 points I bring up are: Do you get motion sickness, and your car and skills are at a different place than mine so doing 'this' will likely cause you a problem. In addition, my driving is tempered by the person in the seat...

Ray

ProCoach

Man, came back to this thread last night and there are quite a wide range of positive and negative experiences...

Agreed. Wide range out there. In all three...

Agreed. Make clear ALL expectations, in advance.

I can't imagine letting someone drive who asked me if THEY could drive MY car, unsolicited. That's just bad form.

It's a trust issue. If I don't really know you, why would I do that?

If either party is uncomfortable, at ANY time, STOP. Before or during any drive.

Safest way is to ride with an instructor in THEIR car, assuming proper safety equipment in place. If you feel you need that "kinesthetic" benchmark, this is the safest and least (potentially) complicated way to do it.

Well, I think most folks know what I think about that.

Yes, the ride along can help, can open eyes, but for serious learning, the discussion should take place outside the car.

On data and video, there's always the issue of comparing one variable (even one performing at a higher level) with another. I can't count how many times a student/client of mine or another pro driver/instructor will gleefully observe "I'm better at braking than the instructor/coach!" Of COURSE you are, it's YOUR car and few responsible instructor/coaches will maximize performance in areas with the highest risk exposure! Sheesh...

There is NO car that cannot be driven quicker by somebody else, so there's that. We KNOW the benchmarks people need to reach to get to that level. We KNOW the best practices in order to reach those critical KPI's. How you get there HAS to be incremental, because initially, no beginning and few intermediate or even advanced DE drivers have any reference on how FAST their cars CAN go...

I started driving other people's cars on track many years before my own. I was taught not to ask, but wait to be asked. I was taught that the greatest threat to my continued participation in this sport was reckless behavior or an error in judgment resulting in damage to someone elses car. I was told early on; "treat another's car like a gun, because if it goes off, you'll wish you were dead." That's in my mind, EVERY moment I am driving someone else's car.

Lately, on my FB feed and through talking with other professionals, there has been a marked rise in accidents with an instructor AND/OR a paid professional coach at the wheel of a student/client's car.

As in everything about this sport, the highest level of personal responsibility is assumed when sliding behind the wheel. Some people recognize that, some don't KNOW to recognize that, based on their narrow or truncated experience, and some don't care...

BobKid

This is one reason I buy HPDE insurance and check the box so that the policy also covers the instructor as an authorized driver.

bpu699

Procoach posted above:

I can't imagine letting someone drive who asked me if THEY could drive MY car, unsolicited. That's just bad form.


The dynamics of this are different for you as an isntrutor. Now, if you are a student, and the instructors asks to drive your car ("Here, let me show you how you can do it better..."), then saying "no" is a whole 'nother issue.

You feel obliged, and/or you feel its part of the program.

I believe that the PCA instructs its instructors NOT to drive the students cars unless specifically asked. But, that's not what happens.

And, I get it. The instructor is trying to help and the student to learn...

Best case scenario, there should be some kind of insurance probided for instructors that cover the car when they drive a students vehicle...

ProCoach

BS, the student ALWAYS reserves the right to say no. That is simply absurd.

I understand that everyone is just standing around, having a good time, and that this comes up informally, but that is VERY different than having it mandated by the organization. Look at what Chin does, THAT should be the model. Allow it, but it's a compact between student and instructor, NOT mandated by the organization. The rise of pro coaches has made this a little more common, but again, that is a compact between the client and the coach, because money changes hands. Of course, the pro should have at least liability insurance.

I repeat, the organization, for legal purposes, should NEVER require this to happen, especially putting volunteer instructors in a liable position, because precedent has been set...

AFA insurance provided by the organization for this to happen, that would be prohibitively expensive, AND the organization again would be on the hook for vouching for the qualifications and judgment of their volunteer instructor. I see nothing good coming from that.