audipwr1

He went home - I did give him fair warning to approach limits carefully when I gave him a ride along

sparks259

I have always reserved to take my student for a ride in my car or theirs, if they want, until AFTER the students last run of the day. It gives them something to think about without the opportunity to try to replicate what they have just experienced.

Ubermensch

This is actually one of my major complaints about the West Coast clubs i've run with so far. By not allowing students to go out with instructors they limit the learning opportunities. I still have plenty to learn so there's no risk of me not picking something up, But having an instructor drive your car provides information you can't get any other way.

996TWINS

To the OP, was it Big Willow or the Streets? Your lap time versus the instructor's time?

So true!!!

There is no better way to find out what your car is capable of, unless there is an experienced driver behind the wheel.

I stopped trying to get more track days in under my belt, but rather go with an instructor during a track day.

Manifold

Most students have benefitted from riding with me, but a few did drive worse immediately after riding with me, I think mainly because they tried to mimic what they thought they experienced, not realizing how hard I braked (smooth brake application fooled them) and how my trailbraking made faster corner entry seem to be as easy as just turning in at higher speed. We eventually sorted that out, but it's something to watch out for.

I'm gradually getting away from driving student's cars for liability reasons as much as anything else. I'm not keen on sorting out responsibility or feeling bad if, while I'm driving, the car has a mechanical or hits fluid or an animal (I recently hit a groundhog in my car at 140 mph!).

That said, I've had some students that only plan to do one DE, or do them very infrequently - bucket list sort of thing - and I don't mind taking them in my car at a decent pace so they can feel what that's like and have some fun.

RickyBobby

I'd say my most eye-opening moment as an adv level driver was when a professional coach drove my car (w me in the right seat).

d15b7

whenever I drive a student's car, i ADAMANTLY explain that this is 'next level' sort of an experience, and that I DO NOT want him/her to try to replicate it. during the ride, I talk through every corner, explaining what I'm doing, and how I'm doing it; I often will say to watch my hands/feet/eyes as I'm driving, pointing out various concepts etc. afterwards, I always sit in the car and debrief/explain what has just happened. I encourage questions. and after that, i ALWAYS ride with him/her the next session and make sure that they are driving within their means (and hopefully starting to work on what they have seen when I was driving, but in baby-steps).

without doing that, you run the risk of exactly what happened to audipwr -- if the student is aggressive and says to himself 'he did it; I can too' and he doesn't have the skills and common sense to back it up? sad bad things can happen.

one last thought -- I only will drive a student's car if he asks me to. I don't offer to do so. I think that might put a student in an uncomfortable spot with undue pressure on him.

Sramsay

I have always felt that an instructor should drive a students car in a way the student can copy. What's the point of an instructor taking a beginner out and driving 10/10's? A good instructor should tell the student ' let me show you what you can do' not 'let me show you what your car can do'. Of course this changes as the student progresses and gains experience.

AudiOn19s

Pretty sure this was the line of thinking that was put in place when it's suggested you only take a student out in the run group above their current group and drive to the pace of that group. I think it's best as I've personally given someone a ride at a much higher level than they were driving and when we hopped back in their car they tried to kill me.

As for driving students cars...just never been a fan myself. I'll put anyone that wants to get in my car in there and give them a tour. Other than the loud exhaust getting in the way of communications from time to time I should be able to teach them what I need to teach them in my car. It's not a complete apples to apples comparison all the time but for the most part they should be able to "get" what I'm after.

The only exceptions I've really made to this is I'll drive my brother's car anytime cause we're family and will take care of each other and I've also hopped in and driven a spec miata in the rain at Mid Ohio when I wasn't otherwise going to go out in my car because it wasn't on appropriate tires.

Otherwise it's just not worth the risk factor to me. Sometimes I wish I wasn't soo cautious cause I've been offered up some pretty tempting equipment to drive lately and some of it is painful to turn away from.

LuigiVampa

I was driving with a professional coach at the end of last season and started complaining that my tires were really old and had no grip left. They had run an enduro race and probably 3 or 4 DE days.

He got in and drove a lap record for my class, with me in the car, while talking me through every turn.

The lesson I learned that day is to drive the grip that is available. I have bought fewer tires ever since while progressively driving smoother ("faster").

seanseidman

I agree totally
I became a PCA National Instructor in UCR Region, where an instructor can only drive a student one run group above theirs.

rbahr

I will gladly let someone ride with me, but the 'what could possible go wrong' mantra starts up when I drive their car. Even if it is not your fault, not worth the headache...

Ray

Verboden

It was Big Willow. I didn't run the timer because it was the last session and I usually try and take that session easy. I'd guess he was a good 5 seconds on me and doing 8/10s.

To the other commenters who mentioned feel, that is the message I was trying to get across but lacked the right word. Even if it was the instructor's car it would have been a far superior lesson than if I was driving.

I think its especially useful to show comparisons - go off throttle to demonstrate the rear getting light and then on to have it squat. How would you ever talk a student through that.

RickBetterley

+1

caymannyc

May I propose an alternative solution, best of both worlds

In short, my view on having a good driver driving your car is that the inexperienced driver can see how hard the car can be pushed, better lines, where to start braking, maybe that's about it. Yes, it is eye-opening, but for it to be truly beneficial, you need to be able to replicate what you say using a systematic process. Just sitting in the passenger seat, you can't really see:

-how hard is he braking, is he braking at all?
-how hard is he accelerating and precisely where?
-how is he countering over/under steer?

One of the most helpful tools I find is having a top notch track timer with GPS, gopro and g-force and throttle/brake feature. While not 100% accurate, you can at least see RPMs and generally when and how hard they are on the gas or the brakes. "Image training" is great and you can sit in front of your computer, watch the video with data and minimic that lap over and over again using your hands and feet.

If you have access to a simulator (if you don't, GET ONE!!!), practice what you did on the "image training" on the simulator. It sounds scary, but you need to spin out a few times to really know where the "true" braking line is , and this is best done on a simulator.

After enough practice, take your car to the track, and start off cautiously but build up to what the instructor did. Start inching your braking point closer and closer to where the instructor had done.

Protip: A lot of people imagine braking to be one continual motion, generally with increasing pressure on the brake pedal. Same goes for accelerating. Braking/accelerating need not be continual. You can feather your brakes and you can most certainly feather your accelerator, especially when you're on the limit of your car's grip. Feathering means pressing, releasing, pressing, releasing on the pedal, in varying frequency, pressure and speed.

Protip 2: Spend a season on a kart. You learn to become very precise at judging entry speeds and having the 100% best line, since it is so critical in a kart and they are unforgiving if your line is even slight off, or you brake even a few inches too early or too late or too hard or too soft. You also learn how to feather your brakes (no ABS) and accelerator (no clutch so you need to master RPM management and keep the revs as high as you can even while braking).

Just my .02.