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Old 09-20-2016, 08:58 AM   #16
tvr-4
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Very refreshing - after seeing the title, I was almost positive another "flatout" was coming.

Also, nice job progressing the guy at his pace. Sometimes instructors are stuck on one-size-fits-all pattern which isn't always great for the student.
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Old 09-23-2016, 10:20 AM   #17
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Damn!! I've done a few DE's now and like to think I'm doing a pretty good job but I wouldn't dream of turning my stability control off.

Do instructors usually suggest that eventually?
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Old 09-23-2016, 10:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Weasel View Post
Damn!! I've done a few DE's now and like to think I'm doing a pretty good job but I wouldn't dream of turning my stability control off.

Do instructors usually suggest that eventually?
One problem is stability control in modern cars is it is getting very, very good and it can be hard from the right seat to feel it going off. On older cars, it was very obvious. Then there is the issue of the stability control catching the car and it begs the question of would the student be able to catch it without the crutch?

The case I presented here is very unique. This student was gifted in both the skill and judgement departments. He knew turning off the TC would induce some more risk and backed off appropriately, then worked his speed back up. Overall, he wasn't worried about his speed, he was concerned about driving correctly. There were even times he backed off significantly during a session to get his head together and then he speeded up again - like I said, very good judgement.

For cars with intrusive TC, it does eventually get switched off. If it is not intrusive, there is no reason to turn it off other than to verify the driving performance is the driver, not the car.

-Mike
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Old 09-23-2016, 10:38 AM   #19
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Good to know. Thanks Mike!

I've been of the opinion that if the TC steps in to do anything for me, I've already screwed up. My impression is that the systems in a modern Porsche are generally very good and haven't yet had the feeling that they're holding me back from doing anything I want to do.

There's definitely comfort in knowing they're there to bail me out, too.
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Old 09-23-2016, 01:32 PM   #20
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Great story, thanks for sharing. I hope you realize how rare this is.

My last time instructing, my two students were polar opposites. My morning student was one of the best that I have ever had. My afternoon student... well, let's just say I was questioning how they managed to even drive to the track. By far worst student ever. I went for two off-track excursions on the first lap the student drove. At that point I got out of the car.
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Old 09-23-2016, 06:39 PM   #21
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I had a similar experience with a student last year, ironically in a near stock c7 stingray on runflats.

He very quickly got to red last year and he's more comfortable there then most in that group.

Wish more of the stories went that way.
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Old 09-24-2016, 04:36 PM   #22
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when i read this i immediately thought about the guys in my avatar...
props to you guys who are instructors, i dont think i could do it myself
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Old 09-24-2016, 09:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-gt3 View Post
when i read this i immediately thought about the guys in my avatar...
props to you guys who are instructors, i dont think i could do it myself
I thought of them too when I got my assignment that morning .

So glad it went the other way, although I've never tried instructing by using The Force.

-Mike
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Old 09-27-2016, 05:58 PM   #24
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me too.
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Old 09-27-2016, 07:42 PM   #25
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Had a 1st timer student in his friend's spec miata. This is going to be interesting, I thought. At the end of the day, I was so impressed w/ his finesse at learning the track, car control, and situational awareness, I complemented him. "You must be a jet pilot or something". "Well, yeah, I'm an FA-18 pilot... A lieutenant colonel". I should've known, since he was using terms like "energy management" during the sessions. I felt about 2" tall haha!
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:52 PM   #26
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A year into it, my best students have been:

A 20 yr old youth who had done TONS of AX and his DD was a street motorcycle. He could balance his street miata perfectly and was chasing down mustangs/challengers by the end of day 1.

A 16 year old girl who'd been driving 6 months, came to track with a track prepped MiniCooperS. She was able to pick it up SO quickly, trusted me completely, and LISTENED so well, with perfect execution that she was able to catch and recover a spin by the end of day 2.
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXE36 View Post
One problem is stability control in modern cars is it is getting very, very good and it can be hard from the right seat to feel it going off. On older cars, it was very obvious. Then there is the issue of the stability control catching the car and it begs the question of would the student be able to catch it without the crutch?
SO MUCH THIS.

I've run into this a bit now. It's amazing how transparent modern stability management is. Half the time the dash light doesn't even come on when it's intervening, it just goes and does it's thing. From the right seat, it can be very hard (if not impossible) at times to tell when it's "aiding".

Quote:

The case I presented here is very unique. This student was gifted in both the skill and judgement departments. He knew turning off the TC would induce some more risk and backed off appropriately, then worked his speed back up. Overall, he wasn't worried about his speed, he was concerned about driving correctly. There were even times he backed off significantly during a session to get his head together and then he speeded up again - like I said, very good judgement.

For cars with intrusive TC, it does eventually get switched off. If it is not intrusive, there is no reason to turn it off other than to verify the driving performance is the driver, not the car.

-Mike
Yeah the older cars, it was obvious. The car would just cut out and fall flat.... there was no missing it. In those cases it really was a good "teaching tool" - because you BOTH had NO doubt it'd just saved the student's butt.

Kudos to you for having the cajones to suggest a student turn it off. Awesome to hear he was great with it... but I'm not sure I could ever suggest it, merely for CYA purposes. I run our regional AX school and *used* to suggest that AX was *the* place to shut off stability management and really get a feel for the car. Then one event, the first official AX event of a new season, new guy fresh out of my school, new car, never driven in any kind of AX event before... went and shut off PSM for his first run of the afternoon... and proceeded to find a tire wall 20+ feet off the edge of the course surface, 3/4 of the way down a straightaway. (We were at a kart track.) Basically exited a corner, car started fishtailing, and he kept the pedal down on the floor and went around and around.... eventually "walking" the car down the tire wall, ensuring all 4 corners of the car took damage.

Never again. I now never officially "recommend" anything other than "leave it on" and "take it off at your own risk." Stinks because I think it hampers driver skill progression but the LAST thing I need is to have a student come back and say, "But he TOLD me to turn it off!"
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:21 PM   #28
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I'll always remember my very first track day instructor. At the time I was driving a 4-cyl Chevy S-10 pickup. Horribly slow but it was mine and it was fun. I knew my place among the horsepower hierarchy and gave point-bys to all of the faster cars. Going down the main straight of old Hawaii Raceway Park as fast at that little thing could go (barely 90mph lol) with BMW's overtaking to pass and my instructor yells, "Don't slow down, make them earn it!" Haha that sticks with me still today.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:29 PM   #29
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Sounds like my recent student in a 2015 GT3 at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway. He was in Green group as first time track student but had a Corvette before and was a drag racer. He did very well and just kept going quicker and quicker through the weekend and kept hitting his marks and passing cars. I was sore from holding in 3 point belts at the end of the weekend. It is a technical track with few short straights and lots of sweepers and he (and the GT3) handled it well.
That was in January and this past weekend we were back at CVR going the opposite direction and he was in the time trail group with another instructor and continued to improve and ended up 5th overall in timed runs at 2:01.78 going CCW.

Greg
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:35 PM   #30
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It's fun getting students like that.
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