TXE36

COTA with Chin last Saturday. I was having a good time and "in the zone". Something weird and interesting happened during the session. My brain started directly associating "turn more" with "more brake" rather than the steering wheel - it almost felt like it was cross wired. I've never done this before unconsciously. Turn more has always meant more steering and rotating the car through trailbraking a very conscious act. Anyway, I was continuously setting new PBs and getting more and more aggressive with the trail braking and then did this in T20:


In real time, I though I overdid the trail braking, but in looking at the video, I'm already back on the throttle when the rotation starts and I think it was simply a case of slow hands.

Didn't mess me up too much, in fact set a new PB after coming out from the required black flag discussion.

Thoughts,
-Mike

Olemiss540

From the looks of it, it seems as though you didn't cut throttle early enough once you started to lose traction. On my e36, the moment I cut throttle application once I lose rear traction, she snaps back into place. Video almost seemed like throttle application went UP right when the slide started?

Which tires were you running?

TXE36

NT-01. All of the hairpins at COTA by that time in the afternoon were pretty greasy, T1, T11, T15 and T20. I think it was from all the rubber the high end cars were laying down. Temp was about 95F, very humid.

I don't think lifting at that point would have helped, as it would have unweighted the rear tires even more. A lot more counter steering administered quickly would have helped, IMO.

-Mike

mark kibort

that was strictly a hands vs car attitude situation. yes, match the hands with the rear end ,at the same speed and car will go the way you want it to, regardless of the gas or brake. Yeah, it did look like you were focused on something else and fogot to put in steering input. you turned to 90 degree and didnt go any further and was late putting even that input into the wheel.

mark kibort

that was strictly a hands vs car attitude situation. yes, match the hands with the rear end ,at the same speed and car will go the way you want it to, regardless of the little gas or certainly the brake. no issue with the amount of trail braking, even if the car started to step out. it started to move and then some gas was applied to reduce the grip even further... countersteer would have just made it a nice little slide with no spin. waiting on gas would have been better, but most of the error was just in the hands. regardless of the gas.. the hands make an "yee haw" moment into an "oh shix" moment

mark kibort

go to 2:40

mobonic

Agreed, faster hands... and feeling the rotation sooner with your butt and in a 911 power will help pull you out of a spin and then it into a drift if you can manage the throttle and wheel accordingly....even harder in cups because of the steering lock only lets you counter so much.

Never a good idea or habit to get into by lifting...as mark said it upsets the balance and will cause a worse spin

Olemiss540

This is no 911, too much throttle is what caused the rear end to step out, so easing off the throttle a touch in combination with reducing the steering angle slightly can reduce the amount of traction being required by the rear wheels and step the back end right back in line. In 7 years driving the e36, can not say I have ever encountered a lift oversteer situation, but maybe easing off versus lifting is why.... Not telling Mike anything he doesn't already know, he has 5 times as much seat time as I do, and is a hell of a driver compared to me.

Always a bit of a dance trying to get on throttle with a car that rotates so easily. NOT in any way like my 911 that NEEDS throttle input to plant the rear and rocket out!

If you look at the throttle indicator, it appears that throttle input spikes just AFTER rotation starts...

mark kibort

Both good points. yes, the throttle helped cause exacerbate the spin, but the hands were the majority of the culprit. lift spins are kind of rare, because by lifting you shift weight to the front of the car off the rear and if at the limit, you can get some sliding. this is true, 911 or BMW. however, giving gas when you start to feel a slide, is just going to accelerate the rear of the car by decreasing the already failing grip in the rear. lifting, in that case will stop the slide eventually, provided you have proper countersteer.

mglobe

I've driven that car and it can be tricky sometimes on exit. Good torque, but not the big weight on the tears that you get in a rear engine car.

That said, it looks to me like:

A: Pinching the car a bit on exit as you start to apply throttle.
B: Theres a little lift just as the car starts to go around.
C: Hands were behind the car.

Send me the data Mike and let's see if we can find anything there to help.

Veloce Raptor

Mike, you need to spend a day with me to learn how to drive my old car.

From the video, looks like you didn't trail brake at all (the car's strength) and went to gas way too soon, way before the car had even rotated half way. Remember, that corner is way more than 90 degrees but you were driving it like a 90 degree mid apex corner. Thus you early apexed and got throttle oversteer.

Also, you need to use apex curbing at COTA . All of it. On EVERY apex. You are way off the curbs and thus forced to use a lot more steering angle than optimal.

mark kibort

it's simpler than that. but you are right , he got on the gas before the apex, started to slide and his hands didnt correct and follow the pat of the car. control 101 here.... i think he already said he was just fading out a bit and his hands didnt move.

Veloce Raptor

I know that but had he executed better way before that he would not have had to catch the car

TXE36

Really? Maybe my definition of trail braking is wrong - I thought it was applying the brakes while turning the car. Perhaps I should be using more brakes at the early part of the turn in? The lap below is my PB where it looks to me like I trail brake most of the turns. Is that wrong?


I know the corner is more than 90 degrees and my aim point was always behind the orange pyramid. In fact if you compare the spin video to the PB video it does look like an early apex - I think you are right that is the cause right there. In the PB video, the apex is just behind the pyramid, in the spin it is right at the pyramid.

I tried that earlier in the day and it just felt wrong. It seemed to upset the car, so I limited apex curbs to the hairpins. Had I had more time, I might have tried them again on Sunday. I even made a few passes between T8 and T9 straddling the right hand curb and it still felt wrong.

That said, on Sunday, the SRF definitely didn't like them for example in T2. On each curb bump the car skittered to the left a tiny bit. In that car it was really obvious.

-Mike

TXE36

Thank you for the kind words, but I can assure you lifting too abruptly or at the wrong time can cause a lift over steer - not nearly as dramatic as an old school 911, but it is there. In fact I often make slight adjustments with small lifts to get the car to rotate more.

I see that too and one of my challenges is not lifting when the back end gets funny - I instinctively lift when this happens. What you see in the data is my conscious mind overriding this and putting the throttle back down. It is a very hard habit for me to break. I did something similar nearly 5 years ago in the street E36 M3:


-Mike