Time trial tires
09-01-2016, 12:51 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Everything is dependent. A7's are 1-2 seconds faster than R7's for most people. If your track isnt hard on tires dont buy the hype about them not lasting long. I have set TT lap records on 7, 6, 15 and 20 HC A6's. VIR, Mid Ohio, Barber and Road Atlanta respectively. But tracks like Roebling and CMP are no chance for fast times on well worn tires.
For A's, dont drive full sessions, 3 laps and out. In fact a second set of wheels with practice tires will be well worth the investment. That way each of your sessions on the new A's will be go time on Sunday morning when most people are doing their best. Most times I run one session on Sunday and then go home. Of you want more track time swap back to your practice tires. 2 sessions per weekend at 2-3 laps each will get you at least 3 and up to 4-5 weekends before your flyer tires are practice tires. And you be significantly faster.
I have been doing TT for almost 10 years now. Won probably 40-50k worth of tires. Haven't bought any Hoosiers other than to try bigger sizes (used) in 5 years.
For A's, dont drive full sessions, 3 laps and out. In fact a second set of wheels with practice tires will be well worth the investment. That way each of your sessions on the new A's will be go time on Sunday morning when most people are doing their best. Most times I run one session on Sunday and then go home. Of you want more track time swap back to your practice tires. 2 sessions per weekend at 2-3 laps each will get you at least 3 and up to 4-5 weekends before your flyer tires are practice tires. And you be significantly faster.
I have been doing TT for almost 10 years now. Won probably 40-50k worth of tires. Haven't bought any Hoosiers other than to try bigger sizes (used) in 5 years.
Im a huge advocate for A6s and using them for only when it counts , but over the many years ive used them, i haven seen them last me more than 3 races past when i got them used, which was about 2 races and qual. probalby i get them on average with 5 heat cycle, so that makes the total heat cycle # with little loss of grip to about 8.... i hadnt bought a new set of tires in 14 years, and just did for the last laguna event... the brand new vs the used was worth about .5 seconds.. so thats pretty good.
09-01-2016, 01:02 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Trade offs.
Let's talk tires for time trials. I run an E36 M3, so my preferred size is 245-40-17.3-4 sessions a day, usually 6-10 days a year. Hoosier is the only company with contingencies, but I have to win the class to get tires. Right now I'm not quite quick enough for that.That means it really doesn't make sense for me to spend the money on R7's, as they won't last as long.So what are the tires I should be considering given I'd like more heat cycles than an R7 but something more sticky than an NT01/RA1?Toyo RR? Hankook Z214?
Discuss....
Discuss....
Here is what happens to lots of drivers as they reach the consciously competent phase in their driving careers, they go to 40 rated tires to get a little quicker, but in the process their sticky tires may mask driving weak spots.
The NT-01 (DOT 100) is generally thought of to be 1 1/2 to 2 seconds a lap slower than the DOT 40 rated tires. On the positive side, the are 33% less $ than comparably sized 40 tires, and they last 2X to 3X longer. Most 40 series drivers will admit that the best lap the get is on "stickers"...brand new fresh tires. They will also admit that the first 5 to 10 heat cycles are the best, then at 11, they fall off precipitously and revert to so called "practice tires". I don't know how others feel, but I want good tires every time I go out, "Practice Tires" to me is the same as Dumpster Tires, because that's where I will be throwing them.
The DOT 100 (NT-01) series may take a lap or so to heat cycle themselves...but with proper management, that's where the disadvantage can end...IF, the driver incorporates Data Logging.*** Most drivers will admit, as you have (Right now I'm not quite quick enough...), that they have left time on the table...and that there is at least 2 seconds a lap improvement out there if only they could reach out and grab it. The quick and dirty, and expensive solution is to throw on a set of DOT 40 tires, noting that these tires are not to be driven on the street. If it ever gets wet and you are on DOT 40 tires, expect the unexpected, the least of which is a spin. These tires do NOT like the rain. In addition, they are so soft, they tend to pick up more road debris (Flat tires?) than their DOT 100 series counterparts.
For genuine reproducible improvement, one needs metrics, something more sophisticated than a "butt dyno". And here is one approach that works for many of us, an AiM MXL-2 data logger.*, or something comparable. Foe the basics of Data Logging, read Chris Brow's Book, Making Sense of Squiggly Lines: http://www.cb-racing.com/book_Making-Sense-of-Squiggly-Lines.html The MxL-2 costs about $2,000 and there may be added costs for sensors if your OBD II is inadequate to provide high speed data (In HZ). Worst case, with the MXL-2, some sensors and installation, you'll be out $3,000...but, if your DOT 100 tires are 33% less than DOT 40 tires, and last 2X as long, pay back on the $3000 shouldn't be long. And that's how it looks from my perch over the race tire money pit.
*AiM has cheaper solutions, around $700
Last edited by Martin S.; 09-01-2016 at 02:59 PM.
09-01-2016, 01:25 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
mostly true... but ive raced on DOT 40 tires in the rain, and its like you would expect.. slippery! also ive run the dot 40 tires to and from the track, 200miles and practiced on them , while racing on my "A" set of tires.
I have no issues going back and forth.. for me, i like doing this it gets me keenly aware of the deficiencies of the worn tires, so when i put on the new ones, i know where their increased grip will help and i expect it and am not disappointed. recently at the last two race weekends, i was seeing 2-3 seconds by going back and forth. personally, i think its good practice to do this and keeps you sharp. i used to do this with the toyo RA1s vs the A6s , and now its just cooked A6s vs new or newer A6s.
I have no issues going back and forth.. for me, i like doing this it gets me keenly aware of the deficiencies of the worn tires, so when i put on the new ones, i know where their increased grip will help and i expect it and am not disappointed. recently at the last two race weekends, i was seeing 2-3 seconds by going back and forth. personally, i think its good practice to do this and keeps you sharp. i used to do this with the toyo RA1s vs the A6s , and now its just cooked A6s vs new or newer A6s.
Tire Trade Offs: Anytime you run a a DOT tire with a hardness rating of <100, most of these tires are rated as a 40 by their makers, their wear is compromised compared to a 100 or > tire. To take real advantage of 40 stated tires, most drivers with the exception of the "naturals", will need to have something other than a stock suspension on their car.
Here is what happens to lots of drivers as they reach the consciously competent phase in their driving careers, they go to 40 rated tires to get a little quicker, but in the process their sticky tires may mask driving weak spots.
The NT-01 (DOT 100) is generally thought of to be 1 1/2 to 2 seconds a lap slower than the DOT 40 rated tires. On the positive side, the are 33% less $ than comparably sized 40 tires, and they last 2X to 3X longer. Most 40 series drivers will admit that the best lap the get is on "stickers"...brand new fresh tires. They will also admit that the first 5 to 10 heat cycles are the best, then at 11, they fall off precipitously and revert to so called "practice tires". I don't know how others feel, but I want good tires every time I go out, "Practice Tires" to me is the same as Dumpster Tires, because that's where I will be throwing them.
The DOT 100 (NT-01) series may take a lap or so to heat cycle themselves...but with proper management, that's where the disadvantage can end...IF, the driver incorporates Data Logging.*** Most drivers will admit, as you have (Right now I'm not quite quick enough...), that they have left time on the table...and that there is at least 2 seconds a lap improvement out there if only they could reach out and grab it. The quick and dirty, and expensive solution is to throw on a set of DOT 40 tires, noting that these tires are not to be driven on the street. If it ever gets wet and you are on DOT 40 tires, expect the unexpected, the least of which is a spin. These tires do NOT like the rain. In addition, they are so soft, they tend to pick up more road debris (Flat tires?) than their DOT 100 series counterparts.
For genuine reproducible improvement, one needs metrics, something more sophisticated than a "butt dyno". And here is one approach that works for many of us, an AiM MXL-2 data logger.***, or something comparable. The MxL-2 costs $2,000 and there may be added costs for sensors if your OBD II is inadequate to provide high speed data (In HZ). Worst case, with the MXL-2, some sensors and installation, you'll be out $3,000***....but, if your 100 tires are 33% less than DOT 40 tires, and last 2X as long, pay back on the $3000 shouldn't be long. And that's how it looks from my perch over the race tire money pit.
***AiM has cheaper solutions, around $700
Here is what happens to lots of drivers as they reach the consciously competent phase in their driving careers, they go to 40 rated tires to get a little quicker, but in the process their sticky tires may mask driving weak spots.
The NT-01 (DOT 100) is generally thought of to be 1 1/2 to 2 seconds a lap slower than the DOT 40 rated tires. On the positive side, the are 33% less $ than comparably sized 40 tires, and they last 2X to 3X longer. Most 40 series drivers will admit that the best lap the get is on "stickers"...brand new fresh tires. They will also admit that the first 5 to 10 heat cycles are the best, then at 11, they fall off precipitously and revert to so called "practice tires". I don't know how others feel, but I want good tires every time I go out, "Practice Tires" to me is the same as Dumpster Tires, because that's where I will be throwing them.
The DOT 100 (NT-01) series may take a lap or so to heat cycle themselves...but with proper management, that's where the disadvantage can end...IF, the driver incorporates Data Logging.*** Most drivers will admit, as you have (Right now I'm not quite quick enough...), that they have left time on the table...and that there is at least 2 seconds a lap improvement out there if only they could reach out and grab it. The quick and dirty, and expensive solution is to throw on a set of DOT 40 tires, noting that these tires are not to be driven on the street. If it ever gets wet and you are on DOT 40 tires, expect the unexpected, the least of which is a spin. These tires do NOT like the rain. In addition, they are so soft, they tend to pick up more road debris (Flat tires?) than their DOT 100 series counterparts.
For genuine reproducible improvement, one needs metrics, something more sophisticated than a "butt dyno". And here is one approach that works for many of us, an AiM MXL-2 data logger.***, or something comparable. The MxL-2 costs $2,000 and there may be added costs for sensors if your OBD II is inadequate to provide high speed data (In HZ). Worst case, with the MXL-2, some sensors and installation, you'll be out $3,000***....but, if your 100 tires are 33% less than DOT 40 tires, and last 2X as long, pay back on the $3000 shouldn't be long. And that's how it looks from my perch over the race tire money pit.
***AiM has cheaper solutions, around $700
09-01-2016, 02:08 PM
#20
Race Car
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i want to know the lap record and track set on the 20 heat cycle A6. Im a huge advocate for A6s and using them for only when it counts , but over the many years ive used them, i haven seen them last me more than 3 races past when i got them used, which was about 2 races and qual. probalby i get them on average with 5 heat cycle, so that makes the total heat cycle # with little loss of grip to about 8.... i hadnt bought a new set of tires in 14 years, and just did for the last laguna event... the brand new vs the used was worth about .5 seconds.. so thats pretty good.
Im a huge advocate for A6s and using them for only when it counts , but over the many years ive used them, i haven seen them last me more than 3 races past when i got them used, which was about 2 races and qual. probalby i get them on average with 5 heat cycle, so that makes the total heat cycle # with little loss of grip to about 8.... i hadnt bought a new set of tires in 14 years, and just did for the last laguna event... the brand new vs the used was worth about .5 seconds.. so thats pretty good.About half of the HC were 1-3 laps.
Road Atlanta is very, very easy on tires though and I attribute the longevity to every lap being turned at Road Atlanta during the winter season. If you race them and overheat them though, they turn to trash quicker.
09-01-2016, 03:48 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
ive had some of my most spectacular moments uncaptured by a GoPro camera (the early ones). uggg.. and bought their stock at 80 and now its what, $15? they KILL me!
yeah, probably right, the cooler days saved you. i cant remember the heat cycles on the A6s that i was using for all practice and commuting... they were probably around 12 or so, at least and then at willow, (turn 9 inside tire gets abused) it corrded to the steel belts! over the past few weekends before it was consistantly 2- 3 seconds slower but fun. (i like sliding)
anyway, i think the point is, if you take care of them , they are great for a while, especially if you are going to use them for races and TT only.
the only debate is whether you get faster only driving on the good stuff.
personally, i think crappy tires makes you appreciate the good stuff and are better because of it.
as a note, i think the SCCA 30min races are just a little long for the A6, after 20mins, i start struggling them and i dont back off, so they get a little overheated. with nasa races and porsche club, the 20 to 25min seems to be optimal and the tires seem to last longer.
yeah, probably right, the cooler days saved you. i cant remember the heat cycles on the A6s that i was using for all practice and commuting... they were probably around 12 or so, at least and then at willow, (turn 9 inside tire gets abused) it corrded to the steel belts! over the past few weekends before it was consistantly 2- 3 seconds slower but fun. (i like sliding)
anyway, i think the point is, if you take care of them , they are great for a while, especially if you are going to use them for races and TT only.
the only debate is whether you get faster only driving on the good stuff.
personally, i think crappy tires makes you appreciate the good stuff and are better because of it.
as a note, i think the SCCA 30min races are just a little long for the A6, after 20mins, i start struggling them and i dont back off, so they get a little overheated. with nasa races and porsche club, the 20 to 25min seems to be optimal and the tires seem to last longer.
Well technically it was a tie. I ran 1:26.3 on sticker A6 in Dec of 2012 and then tied the record with a 1:26.3 in March the following year on the same old tires. The same set from December ran a couple more sessions that Sunday, a 3 day PBOC event in February with myself and Andrew Davis lapping non stop on Saturday in multiple sessions and me on Sunday plus all day Friday in the test N tune. And in the second session on Saturday in March I ran the 1:26.3. Almost lost it in turn 4 on the first lap because the tires were so hard. I have a rear video but the front Gopro decided not to work that session. Rear tires were corded at the end of the day Saturday at 22 HC. Fronts made it a while longer.
About half of the HC were 1-3 laps.
Road Atlanta is very, very easy on tires though and I attribute the longevity to every lap being turned at Road Atlanta during the winter season. If you race them and overheat them though, they turn to trash quicker.
About half of the HC were 1-3 laps.
Road Atlanta is very, very easy on tires though and I attribute the longevity to every lap being turned at Road Atlanta during the winter season. If you race them and overheat them though, they turn to trash quicker.
09-01-2016, 04:02 PM
#22
Best price I've seen on my Nittos was $158 each shipped. The Z214, $200 shipped. Nittos were 21% cheaper and they last all the way down to the cords.
Data and coaching is definitely required to get ones remaining performance. If you can do without the OBD logging and just use accelerometers the Aim Solo is sub $400 new.
Last time I was at MSRH, I had a coach pushing me very hard and I came to within a second to my PB while running heat cycled out Z214s on the front and NT-01s on the back. Pretty good compared to Z214s in their prime.
Sure stickier tires are faster and more expensive. What is the fun in that? I want to be faster.
-Mike
09-04-2016, 10:42 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
My guys I know/see at the track are past this stage, me too. I settled in on Nitto NT-01 tires. I have tried Z 214 tires, one worked for me another went away quick, real crap.
09-05-2016, 04:32 PM
#25
Race Car
I have ordered from JP http://usedracingtires.com/ in the past and his tires seem to be of good quality with plenty of life left. $600 shipped for a set of 4.