Dr911

I was referring to myself as a generic gender-neutral "gentleman-driver" in this case. Of course technically speaking you are more so.

I live in NC and we are sick and tired of gender-related bathroom laws in these parts. So I'm intentionally doing my part to advance to whole gender neutrality thing.

TXE36

Dr911, we had a lively braking discussion over on Ask the Coach starting back in April that may interest you.

The discussion starts here.

In particular, Peter posted links to a couple of interesting videos here.

VR provided data to compare with mine here. Very comparable, as we are both driving the same car, same track, different day.

Finally, some objectively measured improvement here. Yea!!!

Brew a pot of coffee or tea, go back to where it starts and read .

-Mike

ProCoach

sbelles

In a spec Miata you shouldn't need a whole lot of threshold braking at Sebring. One, the hairpin and again for 17. The hairpin is tricky because there are bumps right in the middle of the braking zone. VR noticed one day that I had a double spike there. I had to go out again to realize why. If I wait until after the bumps it's too late. If I threshold brake through them, the abs will kick in and again I'm too late. I have to hit them, release a little and then threshold. It's so automatic that I didn't realize I was doing it until I thought about it. That's also how bad habits get reinforced so it's good to examine what you are doing at every corner routinely. Threshold for 1 and 17 in my car (and a spec Miata) should be very short. Then I start releasing and trail into the turn until it get pointed in the right direction. For 1 a combination of references. For 17 it's when I can see the middle of the bridge. YMMV

A good drill for threshold braking is first to find the threshold. Brake early and keep pressing harder until you get to the point where the ABS licks in or you get wheel lockup if you don't have ABS. Be careful if that's the case and be ready to release quickly. Once you find the threshold, push your braking later and later until to can't get it to the apex and then back off a little to where you can.

edit: Forgot about the tower turn. That's actually a good one to practice on. Just start braking early.

surlynkid

SM has no ABS. So everyone that is using ABS should leave this to the drivers that don't have ABS.

To the OP, what pads are you running front/rear and how often do you lock up a front? If you are never locking up a front wheel, you have room to brake harder. Watch SM races on YouTube.

sbelles

I thought some did and some didn't? I've driven cars with and without. Finding the threshold is no different but the consequences can be when you go over so you need a good feel for when they are going to lock up. Especially the rears. The OP should also be very careful at the hairpin without ABS. I've seen a lot of cars in the armco there because the rears locked up in the bumps.

ProCoach

For the Safety Pin at Sebring, you can come off a car width from the left edge of the road and gain some stability as the bumps aren't quite so bad.

Matt Romanowski

It was noted in some of the threads that TXE36 linked, but writing down your brake pressure that you thought you used, then comparing it to what the data says is a great start. Also, use your own data to compare your braking long G and pressures if you have them. Considering the track slope, grip, etc, you can look to see if you are braking to the same deceleration level at each corner.

Also, to really learn the maximum you can brake, you will have to lock up the tires a few times. Most people don't realize the max brake pressures they can use before getting lock up. With a set of tires you don't care about, brake as hard as you can, in a straight line, and learn how fast your car will slow down. Then, feel the car and calibrate your senses to what is capable.

To help, check out the Sebring debrief sheet I use. I make them into pads and then you can make all your track notes, mark your areas of deficit and what you did well (which is equally important).

Finally, make a detailed, written plan on what you are going to work on. Use the track map to write down what you are going to do and make it in great detail. Do not just write "brake deeper and harder in turn 1." Write a full narrative of what and how you are going to do it and then use this to visualize it. Write something more like "Coming in to turn 1, I will move very quickly from full throttle to full brake pressure (10 pedal) at the 375', then taper off my brake application as I start to dial in steering at the dark patch, drivers right. I will work to a full release by the time I get to the crack in the track that goes to the Pennzoil banner on the wall. I'll use the steering input to do the last bit of slowing and start to pick up throttle at the apex, making a smooth application all the way to full throttle by the time I get 3/4 of the way to the exit curb."

Something that large and detailed of a plan might be the only thing your really work on in a session (or maybe a whole weekend!)

surlynkid

A 1.6 SM has no ABS. The rears are not the problem. The fronts lock and you lose steering unless you realize they locked. Locking an inside front is common in SM racing as the 1.6 cars can outbrake the heavier 1.8 cars. You just have to really realize you locked them up as you quit slowing and release rather than brake harder.

Dr911

Thank you for the resources and sharing your techniques. I'll put them into the hopper and come up with a plan

Manifold

To add to what's already been said, I suggest being attentive to braking all the time when driving on the road. Learn to see and feel the effects of 1% modulations of brake pressure. Where it's safe to do so, brake a little later than seems reasonable, but manage the brake pressure such that you easily slow down as needed with the car staying composed (this is an excellent way to scare passengers ). Experiment with variations on how you trailbrake.

Though we aren't generally near the limits when driving on the road, I believe that this kind of attention to braking on the road pays dividends on track. And generally, I try to maintain the same overall driving 'style' on both road and track, to avoid development of bad habits on the road which might creep into my track driving.

IIRC, Ross Bentley talks about this stuff in his books?

PLNewman

From what I observed at Sebring last weekend, my friend DR911 broke too early, too hard, and too long at Turn 1 and lost all momentum. Too early, too hard, and too long at Turn 3. Too early, too hard, and too long at Turn 10 and 13. Too early, too hard, and too long at Turn 15 and 16 and 17. That's seven turns with several seconds lost in each turn and very little momentum carried around the track.

mrbill_fl

There are far more skilled drovers and instructors here than I, But here's my .002

I always focus on braking skills 1st. I talk about peddle pressure, on a 1-10 scale. (Thanks skippy!)

Initial braking is around a 6-7 and increases as you get closer to the turn in. 10 being lockup, a '1' being calipers just touching the pads. you want to be at a 9 peddle just before the turn in.

at Sebring, the 'safety pin and T10' both have run outs, these are the places to practice the threshold braking, and if you lockup, use the run out zones. -tell someone (race control) you may do this before the session.

next up, I watch release of brake pressure when going to the clutch. -legs should operate independently, but its a tough skill to master. most release some brake pressure when pushing in the clutch. -don't do that.

lastly, I try to do the threshold braking well ahead of the turn in, then when its working, move the beginning of the brake zone closer to the apex. coasting to the turn in, initially, then as you get it down, you will be coming off the brake just as you turn in.


(my experience is) Most new drivers don't ever get to a 8 or 9 brake peddle. I tell them to try an brake the peddle, or stand on the brake. -usually that's just a #7 or 8.... lock up is a 10. find that and back off just a hair.

I also talk about modulating the brake pressure with your ankle. or 'curling the toes' you (most) don't have fine enough motor skills in your legs (thigh muscle), but do in their ankle. So when you give that initial 'stab' of the brakes, its hard to increase that ' just slightly' this is where I try to get across the concept, of when you leg is planted on the brake, to increase that a little with 'curling your toes' (which involves your ankle muscle)


Videos of your foot work wouldn't hurt. -you are heel and toe-ing? correct ?


finally, you're sure your equipment works properly?
a fast driver, drove your car and said brakes are fine.... GOOD! Then its just the loose nut behind the wheel that needs adjustment.

edit: I'll also add at some turns, like T1 ( T15 & T16) you can apply some throttle to help settle the car.
ie, you can carry more speed through a turn, being on the gas, then coasting to the apex. So you don't have to over brake if you are on the gas. it plants the rear. (-similar to powerboats, or jetski's they turn better when on the throttle, as they get a 'bite')

fatbillybob

So if you can get to max braking in 0.20 sec and have a nice trail off slope on the data as pretty ideal braking...what does the graph of stabbing the brakes look like and upsetting the car? Will that look like the max braking initial trace then abrupt no braking as the driver tries to gather the car back up?

surlynkid

RL list of full of great drivers and coaches but the OP is asking SM questions on a Porsche forum. Best place to go is www.mazdaracers.com for SM specific help.