LRP. Braking after the downhill turn Apex????
07-01-2016, 08:52 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ProCoach
JP66, the answers others have posted don't tell the whole story.
Drivers need to be careful when attempting to follow other driver's advice, especially in this area of the track.
Exit speed from West Bend, where and how long drivers shift up, how long the throttle is not at 100% from turn-in at West Bend to braking at Big Bend are all very important factors to how those drivers ostensibly "do the Downhill flat."
When viewed more completely, this can be very illuminating. And it can puncture this urban myth that you can't have a fast lap without "going flat" down the Downhill. Too many similarities with Turn 12 at Road Atlanta... Same deal.
There are certain, specific methodologies pro and accomplished am drivers use to build up to the point where the percentage full throttle over this entire section can be incrementally improved, but please, DO NOT change what you're doing just because you read on Rennlist that others "do it flat."
I love all you guys (and know most who have posted), but my several hundred megabytes of data in a variety of cars (including my own experience there over the last thirty years, in about four dozen different cars) indicate that there are a tremendous number of "degrees" in "going flat" down the Downhill.
And many that have done it once, CHOOSE not to do it every subsequent lap...
Sheesh...
07-01-2016, 09:31 AM
#17
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The fact is that you need to time your throttle lift (to a 1 or 2 pedal) and subsequent turn in as you hit the compression perfectly and brush the curbing at the apex. There are massive consequences if you mis any of those.
BTW - This is the same as going up the Esses at VIR "flat out" or T12 at Road Atlanta.
Thanks, Frank and Steve! Easy does it, Joe!
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07-01-2016, 09:45 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
JP66, the answers others have posted don't tell the whole story.
Drivers need to be careful when attempting to follow other driver's advice, especially in this area of the track.
Exit speed from West Bend, where and how long drivers shift up, how long the throttle is not at 100% from turn-in at West Bend to braking at Big Bend are all very important factors to how those drivers ostensibly "do the Downhill flat."
When viewed more completely, this can be very illuminating. And it can puncture this urban myth that you can't have a fast lap without "going flat" down the Downhill. Too many similarities with Turn 12 at Road Atlanta... Same deal.
There are certain, specific methodologies pro and accomplished am drivers use to build up to the point where the percentage full throttle over this entire section can be incrementally improved, but please, DO NOT change what you're doing just because you read on Rennlist that others "do it flat."
I love all you guys (and know most who have posted), but my several hundred megabytes of data in a variety of cars (including my own experience there over the last thirty years, in about four dozen different cars) indicate that there are a tremendous number of "degrees" in "going flat" down the Downhill.
And many that have done it once, CHOOSE not to do it every subsequent lap...
Sheesh...
this
07-01-2016, 09:47 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
I have been down the downhill both ways in my SPB. When I set the new SPB record this year, I was flat down the downhill. HOWEVER, I found that what is fast than just flat is flat with a left foot brake at the bottom to settle the car.
As Peter said, the front straight at LRP begins at West Bend. If you carry enough speed in a SPB out of West Bend, going purely flat results in scrubbing speed at the track out of the downhill trying to control the car. Adding the left foot brake at the bottom allows the car to settle and only scrub a small amount of speed (less than going flat). According to my data, the left foot brake vs just flat resulted in an 8mph difference at the end of the front straight. But more importantly, the car is easier to drive down the downhill this way because it is more settled at track out.
As Peter said, the front straight at LRP begins at West Bend. If you carry enough speed in a SPB out of West Bend, going purely flat results in scrubbing speed at the track out of the downhill trying to control the car. Adding the left foot brake at the bottom allows the car to settle and only scrub a small amount of speed (less than going flat). According to my data, the left foot brake vs just flat resulted in an 8mph difference at the end of the front straight. But more importantly, the car is easier to drive down the downhill this way because it is more settled at track out.
07-01-2016, 09:59 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
I have been down the downhill both ways in my SPB. When I set the new SPB record this year, I was flat down the downhill. HOWEVER, I found that what is fast than just flat is flat with a left foot brake at the bottom to settle the car.
As Peter said, the front straight at LRP begins at West Bend. If you carry enough speed in a SPB out of West Bend, going purely flat results in scrubbing speed at the track out of the downhill trying to control the car. Adding the left foot brake at the bottom allows the car to settle and only scrub a small amount of speed (less than going flat). According to my data, the left foot brake vs just flat resulted in an 8mph difference at the end of the front straight. But more importantly, the car is easier to drive down the downhill this way because it is more settled at track out.
As Peter said, the front straight at LRP begins at West Bend. If you carry enough speed in a SPB out of West Bend, going purely flat results in scrubbing speed at the track out of the downhill trying to control the car. Adding the left foot brake at the bottom allows the car to settle and only scrub a small amount of speed (less than going flat). According to my data, the left foot brake vs just flat resulted in an 8mph difference at the end of the front straight. But more importantly, the car is easier to drive down the downhill this way because it is more settled at track out.
07-01-2016, 10:22 AM
#23
I'm in....
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have been down the downhill both ways in my SPB. When I set the new SPB record this year, I was flat down the downhill. HOWEVER, I found that what is fast than just flat is flat with a left foot brake at the bottom to settle the car.
As Peter said, the front straight at LRP begins at West Bend. If you carry enough speed in a SPB out of West Bend, going purely flat results in scrubbing speed at the track out of the downhill trying to control the car. Adding the left foot brake at the bottom allows the car to settle and only scrub a small amount of speed (less than going flat). According to my data, the left foot brake vs just flat resulted in an 8mph difference at the end of the front straight. But more importantly, the car is easier to drive down the downhill this way because it is more settled at track out.
As Peter said, the front straight at LRP begins at West Bend. If you carry enough speed in a SPB out of West Bend, going purely flat results in scrubbing speed at the track out of the downhill trying to control the car. Adding the left foot brake at the bottom allows the car to settle and only scrub a small amount of speed (less than going flat). According to my data, the left foot brake vs just flat resulted in an 8mph difference at the end of the front straight. But more importantly, the car is easier to drive down the downhill this way because it is more settled at track out.
07-01-2016, 10:40 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
Don't underestimate how much your exit speed at West Bend plays into this also. On the record lap this year, I was 2 mph faster at exit than I had previously been before. The 8mph was the cumulative effect of both of these things.
07-01-2016, 12:11 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Ahh yet again the internet has failed me in some ways 
I NEVER meant that I would consider such a maneuver in my car. First, it's not what I've been taught by either Simon or Jonathan. Second, I'm not sure Yoko street tires are even capable of that.
I just had never heard of or seen "flat out" on the downhill, and my first view of the video seemed to indicate that's what the driver was doing.
Thanks for all the discussion though! I see there are plenty of "secrets" you racers try to keep from each other
WOW. That is some PHD stuff right there. No wonder you're sweeping the series in the Northeast. Thanks for a tiny insight into the techniques of the best!
I NEVER meant that I would consider such a maneuver in my car. First, it's not what I've been taught by either Simon or Jonathan. Second, I'm not sure Yoko street tires are even capable of that.
I just had never heard of or seen "flat out" on the downhill, and my first view of the video seemed to indicate that's what the driver was doing.
Thanks for all the discussion though! I see there are plenty of "secrets" you racers try to keep from each other
WOW. That is some PHD stuff right there. No wonder you're sweeping the series in the Northeast. Thanks for a tiny insight into the techniques of the best!
07-01-2016, 04:56 PM
#27
Drifting
if you have enough downforce you can go flat out- For years I watched this and thought I could just go flat out. I was advised not to
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07-01-2016, 04:57 PM
#28
Keith is flat out I think. Mid engine - lot's of downforce or just a breath. I'm looking for a different tape of his.
Last edited by Gofishracing; 07-01-2016 at 05:14 PM.
07-01-2016, 06:07 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
In my 964 on NT-01s, it's light tap of the brakes into West Bend in 4th, WOT on exit of West Bend, breathe-off throttle under bridge, WOT at turn-in for downhill onto front straight.
07-01-2016, 07:04 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
That's what I have been taught and for what I strive although when driving my R Simon Kirkby just lifts going into West Bend and then uses some maintenance throttle until the exit, and then again just a lift on the down hill as opposed to a brake, and that on Yoko ADVANs, but importantly for this discussion, he most definitely is NOT flat out through the downhill. I'm curious to ask his thoughts about the left foot brake to shift the car's weight technique. Really sounds brilliant, but then I wonder if tire limits would come into play.