Newbie unhappy with PCA DEs
05-27-2016, 12:10 PM
#31
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Keep in mind that many instructors instruct for several PCA regions, as well as other clubs or for profit track companies. You can see this in the signature lines of many RL members. Accordingly, going to Chin, or BMW, or another PCA region, in the same area, may expose you to a very similar and overlapping instructor pool.
The key is to find a region or club that clicks. DE is about learning but it is also supposed to be fun. If a region has a clique, and you feel they are unfriendly, give it a good chance and then move on if things don't work out. One of the nice things about driving with the same reason is not only making friends, but knowing who you can trust with a late pass!
People often make the mistake of thinking the instructor student relationship is one way and you can't give input to the instructor. BS! Ask questions and tell them your thoughts. Just because you are "new" doesn't mean you have a voice.
CVR, the region I drive with, collects ratings cards from students at the end of the day. Each one is read, and if there is a problem, there is a review process with the instructor.
I had an issue with a chief instructor with another region who screamed at me for doing a slow spin, at 35 mph, in the pouring rain! I had vowed never to drive with that region again but another person told me that the guy was removed for acting like this with more than one person. Accordingly, one or two people do not make up a whole region.
Good luck and I am sure you will find a region you click with!
The key is to find a region or club that clicks. DE is about learning but it is also supposed to be fun. If a region has a clique, and you feel they are unfriendly, give it a good chance and then move on if things don't work out. One of the nice things about driving with the same reason is not only making friends, but knowing who you can trust with a late pass!
People often make the mistake of thinking the instructor student relationship is one way and you can't give input to the instructor. BS! Ask questions and tell them your thoughts. Just because you are "new" doesn't mean you have a voice.
CVR, the region I drive with, collects ratings cards from students at the end of the day. Each one is read, and if there is a problem, there is a review process with the instructor.
I had an issue with a chief instructor with another region who screamed at me for doing a slow spin, at 35 mph, in the pouring rain! I had vowed never to drive with that region again but another person told me that the guy was removed for acting like this with more than one person. Accordingly, one or two people do not make up a whole region.
Good luck and I am sure you will find a region you click with!
05-27-2016, 12:38 PM
#32
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Lots of good advice to consider. I would also add, get involved in your club. Meet the folks volunteering to put on these events. On weekends you ar not planning on driving, offer to come out and volunteer at the DE event, see the behind the scenes activities, get to know the organizers and make new friends. Then you will have more comfort with the events your drive at and a feel of the personalities.
As others have shared, PCA runs on volunteers, not just participants. PCA is not for profit, so great value for the buck. You can spend more and possibly get more with PCNA, Chin, and others too, but your call on value for money. Now get back out on track!
As others have shared, PCA runs on volunteers, not just participants. PCA is not for profit, so great value for the buck. You can spend more and possibly get more with PCNA, Chin, and others too, but your call on value for money. Now get back out on track!
05-27-2016, 12:44 PM
#33
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The Chin culture is that instructors and drivers are treated like adults, trusted with some freedom, and expected to exercise good judgment. They typically do rise to the occasion, which makes the events more fun for everyone. And the few individuals who don't exercise good judgment are usually identified quickly and dealt with on an individual basis, rather than imposing rules which reduce everyone else's freedom and fun.
05-27-2016, 01:52 PM
#34
Also, using your session to do it is completely unacceptable. This is particularly galling, as the instructor can drive in any session he wants.
The sad fact is there are a few instructors who do it for the free track time and the opportunity to drive other people's cars - this is true in any organization. Most organizations spend considerable effort to weed these types out, but some get through. It is usually detectible via attitude and a strong desire to drive your car. I recommend avoiding these instructors.
BTW, only a handful of instructors have driven my car - and they all did it because I approached and asked them to. It is a lot of responsibility - it warrants being picky about it. As a PCA instructor, I am much more comfortable demonstrating skills in my car and I'm really loath to drive theirs.
-Mike
The sad fact is there are a few instructors who do it for the free track time and the opportunity to drive other people's cars - this is true in any organization. Most organizations spend considerable effort to weed these types out, but some get through. It is usually detectible via attitude and a strong desire to drive your car. I recommend avoiding these instructors.
BTW, only a handful of instructors have driven my car - and they all did it because I approached and asked them to. It is a lot of responsibility - it warrants being picky about it. As a PCA instructor, I am much more comfortable demonstrating skills in my car and I'm really loath to drive theirs.
-Mike
I know that your experience is TX based, but
1) Not all regions give instructors free time - some may actually charge full price
2) Some regions inform their students regarding instructors driving the car either to demonstrate a principal (FWD vs RWD, front engine vs rear) or as an introduction
3) Weeding out has nothing to do with either 1 or 2 in those regions
4) Some regions have evaluation sheets for students to evaluate instructors and vice versa
5) Some regions do not allow the instructors to drive in any run group they wish
6) etc
Please keep information to an applicable identified region and not make a blanket assessment.
05-27-2016, 03:23 PM
#36
Mike,
I know that your experience is TX based, but
1) Not all regions give instructors free time - some may actually charge full price
2) Some regions inform their students regarding instructors driving the car either to demonstrate a principal (FWD vs RWD, front engine vs rear) or as an introduction
3) Weeding out has nothing to do with either 1 or 2 in those regions
4) Some regions have evaluation sheets for students to evaluate instructors and vice versa
5) Some regions do not allow the instructors to drive in any run group they wish
6) etc
Please keep information to an applicable identified region and not make a blanket assessment.
I know that your experience is TX based, but
1) Not all regions give instructors free time - some may actually charge full price
2) Some regions inform their students regarding instructors driving the car either to demonstrate a principal (FWD vs RWD, front engine vs rear) or as an introduction
3) Weeding out has nothing to do with either 1 or 2 in those regions
4) Some regions have evaluation sheets for students to evaluate instructors and vice versa
5) Some regions do not allow the instructors to drive in any run group they wish
6) etc
Please keep information to an applicable identified region and not make a blanket assessment.
2) So your region actually requires the instructor to drive the car beyond the 3/10s introductory session on Saturday morning? We do this helmets off and no passing. If instructors are required to drive the car beyond the intro, how is liability for damage handled?
3) I imagine you would still have some people wanting to be instructors just to drive hot cars and take people for e-ticket rides -- not the ideal instructor candidate.
4) Ok. So do we.
5) Ok. Are they restricted to only the instructor and their student sessions?
6) ??
From what I hear, the approach done around TX has many perks as compared to many others. This goes from free track time in exchange for instruction as well as allowing other marks into Porsche DE events.
-Mike
05-27-2016, 03:29 PM
#37
Another issue are the trains that form. Limited/restricted intermediate passing and a good number of cars =! fun. It doesn't even help that much to pit out and wait.
05-27-2016, 03:36 PM
#39
Going out of town tonight so I wanted to respond beforehand (I don't like "typing" on phones and tablets):
OP, I'm sorry to hear that you've had bad experiences. For example, an instructor driving your car for the entirety of your session is unacceptable (unless you said it was OK or you asked). God knows I've had a few bad instructors as well. There are bad apples wherever you go though.
However, have you considered the possibility that there may be another part of the equation? I'm certainly not trying to accuse you of anything
, but could there be another side of the story? There could have been a point to your 2nd instructor's advice. It is VERY common for newbies to brake way too lightly, way too early, brake lightly and drag it all the way to the turn in point, etc., like we do on the street. Completely different on the track though.
You (plural) need to be braking (later) HARD, i.e. threshold braking. It's possible that the instructor in question was trying to get you to do this. To give you an example, a pro driver once complimented on my braking and told me that some of the drivers he was coaching that day weren't braking anything even close to the car's limit. This was on Advanced Day, BTW.
It is always a good idea to get input from different instructors as we all have different styles, different lines, different teaching techniques, etc. In that, your 1st instructor was completely right. However, is there even a remote possibility that the instructor thought you weren't the right fit for him and wanted to move on? Obviously I could be completely wrong since I don't know you, the instructor, or the situation, but it's a possibility that we shouldn't automatically dismiss.
Finally, PDK will not let you over-rev the engine so you shouldn't worry about the 3rd instructor messing up your car.
If you (again plural) are concerned because he did some unintended downshifts (or upshifts), rev'd the car to redline multiple times, etc., then you shouldn't take the car to the track. Because you'll be doing a lot of that (hard downshifts, redlining everywhere, etc.).
All in all, I encourage you to give PCA another shot. And if you don't jive with your instructor, immediately ask for another one. Chin does tend to have good instructors, but like others have said the base pool is not all that dissimilar between different organizations. I instruct for Chin as well.
I hope you find fun and happiness on the track.
OP, I'm sorry to hear that you've had bad experiences. For example, an instructor driving your car for the entirety of your session is unacceptable (unless you said it was OK or you asked). God knows I've had a few bad instructors as well. There are bad apples wherever you go though.
However, have you considered the possibility that there may be another part of the equation? I'm certainly not trying to accuse you of anything
, but could there be another side of the story? There could have been a point to your 2nd instructor's advice. It is VERY common for newbies to brake way too lightly, way too early, brake lightly and drag it all the way to the turn in point, etc., like we do on the street. Completely different on the track though.You (plural) need to be braking (later) HARD, i.e. threshold braking. It's possible that the instructor in question was trying to get you to do this. To give you an example, a pro driver once complimented on my braking and told me that some of the drivers he was coaching that day weren't braking anything even close to the car's limit. This was on Advanced Day, BTW.
It is always a good idea to get input from different instructors as we all have different styles, different lines, different teaching techniques, etc. In that, your 1st instructor was completely right. However, is there even a remote possibility that the instructor thought you weren't the right fit for him and wanted to move on? Obviously I could be completely wrong since I don't know you, the instructor, or the situation, but it's a possibility that we shouldn't automatically dismiss.
Finally, PDK will not let you over-rev the engine so you shouldn't worry about the 3rd instructor messing up your car.
If you (again plural) are concerned because he did some unintended downshifts (or upshifts), rev'd the car to redline multiple times, etc., then you shouldn't take the car to the track. Because you'll be doing a lot of that (hard downshifts, redlining everywhere, etc.).All in all, I encourage you to give PCA another shot. And if you don't jive with your instructor, immediately ask for another one. Chin does tend to have good instructors, but like others have said the base pool is not all that dissimilar between different organizations. I instruct for Chin as well.
I hope you find fun and happiness on the track.
05-27-2016, 03:48 PM
#40
05-27-2016, 03:54 PM
#41
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Do not let an instructor "decide to drive your car" as they really should not ask. It is your car and you are by no means obligated to allow an instructor to drive it. If you allow an instructor to drive it, the expectation is reduced pace because it is not their car. They should also treat it like they are a guest and if you want the session to end - the session ends. If they want to demonstrate something at speed, then they can use their car. Also, using your session to do it is completely unacceptable. This is particularly galling, as the instructor can drive in any session he wants.
You are the customer, do not be intimidated to complain to the organization if you are not satisfied. Most of the time it is just a personality issue between student and instructor and all that is needed to resolve is to swap some partners around. I consider the instructor drive you described pretty egregious - deserving of a complaint and an instructor *** chewing.
The sad fact is there are a few instructors who do it for the free track time and the opportunity to drive other people's cars - this is true in any organization. Most organizations spend considerable effort to weed these types out, but some get through. It is usually detectible via attitude and a strong desire to drive your car. I recommend avoiding these instructors. I would encourage you to give it another shot. Fortunately, your experience is atypical, so the likelihood of a repeat is small and you have learned enough to deal with it if you get unlucky again.
BTW, only a handful of instructors have driven my car - and they all did it because I approached and asked them to. It is a lot of responsibility - it warrants being picky about it. As a PCA instructor, I am much more comfortable demonstrating skills in my car and I'm really loath to drive theirs.
IIRC, Chin specifically disallows instructors from driving student's cars.
-Mike
You are the customer, do not be intimidated to complain to the organization if you are not satisfied. Most of the time it is just a personality issue between student and instructor and all that is needed to resolve is to swap some partners around. I consider the instructor drive you described pretty egregious - deserving of a complaint and an instructor *** chewing.
The sad fact is there are a few instructors who do it for the free track time and the opportunity to drive other people's cars - this is true in any organization. Most organizations spend considerable effort to weed these types out, but some get through. It is usually detectible via attitude and a strong desire to drive your car. I recommend avoiding these instructors. I would encourage you to give it another shot. Fortunately, your experience is atypical, so the likelihood of a repeat is small and you have learned enough to deal with it if you get unlucky again.
BTW, only a handful of instructors have driven my car - and they all did it because I approached and asked them to. It is a lot of responsibility - it warrants being picky about it. As a PCA instructor, I am much more comfortable demonstrating skills in my car and I'm really loath to drive theirs.
IIRC, Chin specifically disallows instructors from driving student's cars.
-Mike
05-27-2016, 03:56 PM
#42
1) Ok.
2) So your region actually requires the instructor to drive the car beyond the 3/10s introductory session on Saturday morning? We do this helmets off and no passing. If instructors are required to drive the car beyond the intro, how is liability for damage handled?
3) I imagine you would still have some people wanting to be instructors just to drive hot cars and take people for e-ticket rides -- not the ideal instructor candidate.
4) Ok. So do we.
5) Ok. Are they restricted to only the instructor and their student sessions?
6) ??
From what I hear, the approach done around TX has many perks as compared to many others. This goes from free track time in exchange for instruction as well as allowing other marks into Porsche DE events.
-Mike
2) So your region actually requires the instructor to drive the car beyond the 3/10s introductory session on Saturday morning? We do this helmets off and no passing. If instructors are required to drive the car beyond the intro, how is liability for damage handled?
3) I imagine you would still have some people wanting to be instructors just to drive hot cars and take people for e-ticket rides -- not the ideal instructor candidate.
4) Ok. So do we.
5) Ok. Are they restricted to only the instructor and their student sessions?
6) ??
From what I hear, the approach done around TX has many perks as compared to many others. This goes from free track time in exchange for instruction as well as allowing other marks into Porsche DE events.
-Mike
3a) Can't answer legal stuff
3b) Weeded out
5) You can run in the next higher group that the student is in to demonstrate a principal per PCA guide lines. Some regions expand that but not all.
6a) What about those instructors with "single seat" cars
6b) At $2k for a set of tires will limited heat cycles I don't like to take students out in my car. Now if NT01s were available for it I'd be more willing - but they are not.
Last edited by ExMB; 05-27-2016 at 04:30 PM.
05-27-2016, 04:12 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Lots of good advice to consider. I would also add, get involved in your club. Meet the folks volunteering to put on these events. On weekends you ar not planning on driving, offer to come out and volunteer at the DE event, see the behind the scenes activities, get to know the organizers and make new friends. Then you will have more comfort with the events your drive at and a feel of the personalities.
As others have shared, PCA runs on volunteers, not just participants. PCA is not for profit, so great value for the buck. You can spend more and possibly get more with PCNA, Chin, and others too, but your call on value for money. Now get back out on track!
As others have shared, PCA runs on volunteers, not just participants. PCA is not for profit, so great value for the buck. You can spend more and possibly get more with PCNA, Chin, and others too, but your call on value for money. Now get back out on track!
05-27-2016, 04:52 PM
#44
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I think you should give your local PCA region another shot, or register for a Chin event when they have one in your area.
A good instructor will not take it personally if a student expresses concern that he/she isn't clicking with their instructor. Also, since people all learn in different ways, if an instructor isn't teaching in a way that is working for you then bring it up with them. We are not going to be offended. I've always been proactive and ask my student how they want me to teach. I have found in my 17 years of instructing with PCA and other clubs that every student is different and I have to adjust my methods of instruction in order to get them moving in the right direction. For example, some students want a lot of verbal input over the course of the session. Others want less. Some like me to use hand signals along with verbal communication. Other don't. I make it very clear to the student that it's their car and they are there to learn something. If they want to drive at a reduced pace, then we go at a reduced pace until they get comfortable.
Some students ask me to drive their car to show them what I talking about. I will do it, but I make it clear that it's not going to be a thrill ride and purely for me to demonstrate what I am looking for. I've never felt the need to risk a students car and my wallet to show off since it's completely unnecessary. We are the staff, you are the customer, and we want you to have a good experience and come back.
Kind regards,
A good instructor will not take it personally if a student expresses concern that he/she isn't clicking with their instructor. Also, since people all learn in different ways, if an instructor isn't teaching in a way that is working for you then bring it up with them. We are not going to be offended. I've always been proactive and ask my student how they want me to teach. I have found in my 17 years of instructing with PCA and other clubs that every student is different and I have to adjust my methods of instruction in order to get them moving in the right direction. For example, some students want a lot of verbal input over the course of the session. Others want less. Some like me to use hand signals along with verbal communication. Other don't. I make it very clear to the student that it's their car and they are there to learn something. If they want to drive at a reduced pace, then we go at a reduced pace until they get comfortable.
Some students ask me to drive their car to show them what I talking about. I will do it, but I make it clear that it's not going to be a thrill ride and purely for me to demonstrate what I am looking for. I've never felt the need to risk a students car and my wallet to show off since it's completely unnecessary. We are the staff, you are the customer, and we want you to have a good experience and come back.
Kind regards,
05-27-2016, 04:53 PM
#45
2) Some regions, not mine. IMHO if you want to demonstrate to the student the capability of their car its best done in their car: i.e. they drive an Audi and you a 911 - FWD, front engine vs RWD, rear engine. Totally different experience.
3a) Can't answer legal stuff
3b) Weeded out
5) You can run in the next higher group that the student is in to demonstrate a principal per PCA guide lines. Some regions expand that but not all.
6a) What about those instructors with "single seat" cars
6b) At $2k for a set of tires will limited heat cycles I don't like to take students out in my car. Now if NT01s were available for it I'd be more willing - but they are not.
3a) Can't answer legal stuff
3b) Weeded out
5) You can run in the next higher group that the student is in to demonstrate a principal per PCA guide lines. Some regions expand that but not all.
6a) What about those instructors with "single seat" cars
6b) At $2k for a set of tires will limited heat cycles I don't like to take students out in my car. Now if NT01s were available for it I'd be more willing - but they are not.
The OP gave the impression that the instructor required him to allow him to drive his car - that is my big issue. I also don't think it is a good idea for an instructor to consume an entire session doing a demo. If there are no other sessions to run in, then the demo can be done in 2-3 laps pull into hot pits and swap. This is even more important at an expensive and crowded event. We are encouraged in TX to only take students out one run group higher.
I don't really have a problem with an instructor demonstrating the capability of a student's car provided it is the student who asked.
-Mike