981CS (2014 Cayman S) front brake pad wear issues (including some track driving)
05-09-2016, 04:20 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
981CS (2014 Cayman S) front brake pad wear issues (including some track driving)
Apologies for the long-winded, wordy post. I am relatively new to Porsches and to DE and track driving and I am NOT mechanically inclined. Last June I bought a 2014 981CS (CPO) and now have about ten - 12 days on track (LRP, NJMP, Thompson, etc.) and drive comfortably in Yellow run groups. I have many more track days scheduled this month and next and expect to fill up the balance of the season as well, probably doing three to five tracks days per month. (Anyone know the local chapter of Track-Addicts Anonymous?) I live in northern NJ, just outside of NYC.
Given this background, and my desire to spend more time on the track, I need a reliable, trustworthy performance shop for tech inspections and general track prep/maintenance. I have had tech inspections at two different independent Porsche performance shops (in part because of scheduling challenges) who are well known. (For now, the shops shall remain nameless.) I would like to believe that either of these places, based upon their pedigree, would be fine places to land as my go-to shop.
I do not know if the issue I am about to introduce is a shop issue, a part issue, a user issue (me!), or just what’s to be expected. And that’s why I am tapping the formidable RL brain trust. In advance, I appreciate all helpful comments.
When I bought the 981CS last June, it had 2,600 miles and it now has over 15,500(!). A few weeks ago I brought it in for a tech inspection and the shop said it needed new front brake pads and rotors, so of course I agreed. The shop said they would install OEM pads and rotors. At the time the odometer read about 13,500 and this included five track days (two at Lime Rock and three at NJMP). All of these were good weather days with me getting progressively faster and demanding more of the car and the brakes, etc. All good.
After the new pads and rotors were installed I spent three weather-truncated days at Lime Rock, none of which were full out for the entire day. I mention the weather to provide context that I wasn’t driving anywhere near all out and was generally being cautious (but NOT riding or standing on the brakes all the time), so fewer than normal miles on track and generally lower speeds (leaving me to believe less demanding on the car/brakes, etc.).
Last week I went to Thompson for a two-day DE and got the car tech inspected at one of the two places mentioned above (due to schedules, not the one who installed the new rotors and pads). At first the mechanic/inspector thought the pads looked low, but then a more experienced person looked more closely and recognized that they were OEM pads (or I had told him so) and such pads taper toward the edges, so may look more worn than actual. The pads were fine, they said, comfortably above the 50% minimum.
After the first day at Thompson (which was also intermittent rain and wet, so again, not full-on), going through second-day tech inspection, where the PCA inspector used a flashlight to check the pads, they said the front pads were too low/worn and wouldn’t pass inspection. What, I said? Incredulous that these relatively new brake pads were already worn out. (Remember, by now, I had had only three sub-full, sub-optimal days at Lime Rock and one wet day at Thompson, but on none of these days was I “riding” the brakes.” And, by then, the new pads had fewer than 1,800 miles total, compared with the 13,500 miles and five full track days on the original pads. They said the pads were well below the 50% required to drive.)
Having no idea brake pads had the potential to wear out so quickly, I didn’t have a spare pair with me. I thought I was going to be out for the day, as the local shop sponsor had “called around to 15 places” and no one had the correct pads. (Fortunately, I had a creative instructor, who petitioned the Tech Chair to inspect the pads after the first six laps to see if he could see any discernible wear and then after each session and we all agreed we would stop driving immediately if there was any noticeable wear. The Tech Chair was comfortable with my instructor’s idea because this instructor is well known to be very cautious. I proceeded to drive the balance of the day with no noticeable wear.)
I could not believe that the original brake pads on the car could comfortably last over 13,500 miles and five full track days and the new pads didn’t last 1,800 miles with four sub-full track days.
Here is my question: Is it at all possible for the (allegedly) brand new OEM brake pads to wear out after fewer than 1,800 miles and four sub-full track days, when the original pads lasted 13,500 miles and five full track days? This just boggles my mind and makes me question the shop that installed the new pads and rotors.
Thank you very much for helpful comments.
Given this background, and my desire to spend more time on the track, I need a reliable, trustworthy performance shop for tech inspections and general track prep/maintenance. I have had tech inspections at two different independent Porsche performance shops (in part because of scheduling challenges) who are well known. (For now, the shops shall remain nameless.) I would like to believe that either of these places, based upon their pedigree, would be fine places to land as my go-to shop.
I do not know if the issue I am about to introduce is a shop issue, a part issue, a user issue (me!), or just what’s to be expected. And that’s why I am tapping the formidable RL brain trust. In advance, I appreciate all helpful comments.
When I bought the 981CS last June, it had 2,600 miles and it now has over 15,500(!). A few weeks ago I brought it in for a tech inspection and the shop said it needed new front brake pads and rotors, so of course I agreed. The shop said they would install OEM pads and rotors. At the time the odometer read about 13,500 and this included five track days (two at Lime Rock and three at NJMP). All of these were good weather days with me getting progressively faster and demanding more of the car and the brakes, etc. All good.
After the new pads and rotors were installed I spent three weather-truncated days at Lime Rock, none of which were full out for the entire day. I mention the weather to provide context that I wasn’t driving anywhere near all out and was generally being cautious (but NOT riding or standing on the brakes all the time), so fewer than normal miles on track and generally lower speeds (leaving me to believe less demanding on the car/brakes, etc.).
Last week I went to Thompson for a two-day DE and got the car tech inspected at one of the two places mentioned above (due to schedules, not the one who installed the new rotors and pads). At first the mechanic/inspector thought the pads looked low, but then a more experienced person looked more closely and recognized that they were OEM pads (or I had told him so) and such pads taper toward the edges, so may look more worn than actual. The pads were fine, they said, comfortably above the 50% minimum.
After the first day at Thompson (which was also intermittent rain and wet, so again, not full-on), going through second-day tech inspection, where the PCA inspector used a flashlight to check the pads, they said the front pads were too low/worn and wouldn’t pass inspection. What, I said? Incredulous that these relatively new brake pads were already worn out. (Remember, by now, I had had only three sub-full, sub-optimal days at Lime Rock and one wet day at Thompson, but on none of these days was I “riding” the brakes.” And, by then, the new pads had fewer than 1,800 miles total, compared with the 13,500 miles and five full track days on the original pads. They said the pads were well below the 50% required to drive.)
Having no idea brake pads had the potential to wear out so quickly, I didn’t have a spare pair with me. I thought I was going to be out for the day, as the local shop sponsor had “called around to 15 places” and no one had the correct pads. (Fortunately, I had a creative instructor, who petitioned the Tech Chair to inspect the pads after the first six laps to see if he could see any discernible wear and then after each session and we all agreed we would stop driving immediately if there was any noticeable wear. The Tech Chair was comfortable with my instructor’s idea because this instructor is well known to be very cautious. I proceeded to drive the balance of the day with no noticeable wear.)
I could not believe that the original brake pads on the car could comfortably last over 13,500 miles and five full track days and the new pads didn’t last 1,800 miles with four sub-full track days.
Here is my question: Is it at all possible for the (allegedly) brand new OEM brake pads to wear out after fewer than 1,800 miles and four sub-full track days, when the original pads lasted 13,500 miles and five full track days? This just boggles my mind and makes me question the shop that installed the new pads and rotors.
Thank you very much for helpful comments.
05-09-2016, 05:19 PM
#2
Mileage doesn't matter it's how much use stopping that uses up the pads. 4 days sounds a little short and I don't know your tracks, but I can believe a set of OEM pads can be toasted in 4 days at a hard braking track like COTA. If you're going to pursue the sport seriously it's a good idea to get familiar with the braking system even if you're not mechanically inclined. It's very easy to get a rough idea of remaining pads with a flashlight looking through the wheel spokes. Here's a shot of 981 GT4 pads that are new. The gloss black plate is the backing plate and the material between the disc and the plate is the pad material that wears away with use. Typically the plate is 4-5 mm thick and the pad material is 10-12mm. If the pad material is similar to the plate thickness it's near time for new pads. Eventually you will want to move to track pads like Pagid or PFC. I like PFC 11. Hope that helps.
05-09-2016, 05:24 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I cant speak to Caymen specifically but in general:
Forget the "miles"... "Days/Sessions" on the track will put 100x the wear, especially stock pads..
My experience has been: the first weekend may only impart 2-3 times the wear as street driving... By the time you get to the second weekend, you are starting to work the brakes much more aggressively and wear rates go through the roof, especially stock pads... The increased wear will continue to escalate for some time... Until you driving improves and wear goes back down somewhat....
For my 3070lb 993 I expect to replace pads every third weekend and rotors every 6th. On stock pads with 8 weekends under your belt, I would expect you are going through them even faster...
Forget the "miles"... "Days/Sessions" on the track will put 100x the wear, especially stock pads..
My experience has been: the first weekend may only impart 2-3 times the wear as street driving... By the time you get to the second weekend, you are starting to work the brakes much more aggressively and wear rates go through the roof, especially stock pads... The increased wear will continue to escalate for some time... Until you driving improves and wear goes back down somewhat....
For my 3070lb 993 I expect to replace pads every third weekend and rotors every 6th. On stock pads with 8 weekends under your belt, I would expect you are going through them even faster...
Last edited by jscott82; 05-09-2016 at 10:33 PM.
05-09-2016, 05:37 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Agree that you should learn to look at your own brake pads, and even change them yourself if you are going to continue to do as many track days. Bleeding the brakes is something else you will want to learn.
It is entirely possible to use more brake pad on a rainy day, even though you are driving slower, as the car's nannies sense more wheel slip and apply brakes to individual wheels to keep the car from sliding/spinning.
As you get faster and faster, you will soon want to switch to track pads which will perform better and last much longer than stock pads., i.e. tolerate the higher hear better. You may also consider switching to a better brake fluid so you don't boil the fluid and get air bubbles, causing a soft pedal, or worse.
It is entirely possible to use more brake pad on a rainy day, even though you are driving slower, as the car's nannies sense more wheel slip and apply brakes to individual wheels to keep the car from sliding/spinning.
As you get faster and faster, you will soon want to switch to track pads which will perform better and last much longer than stock pads., i.e. tolerate the higher hear better. You may also consider switching to a better brake fluid so you don't boil the fluid and get air bubbles, causing a soft pedal, or worse.
05-09-2016, 09:46 PM
#5
Agree that you should learn to look at your own brake pads, and even change them yourself if you are going to continue to do as many track days. Bleeding the brakes is something else you will want to learn.
It is entirely possible to use more brake pad on a rainy day, even though you are driving slower, as the car's nannies sense more wheel slip and apply brakes to individual wheels to keep the car from sliding/spinning.
As you get faster and faster, you will soon want to switch to track pads which will perform better and last much longer than stock pads., i.e. tolerate the higher hear better. You may also consider switching to a better brake fluid so you don't boil the fluid and get air bubbles, causing a soft pedal, or worse.
It is entirely possible to use more brake pad on a rainy day, even though you are driving slower, as the car's nannies sense more wheel slip and apply brakes to individual wheels to keep the car from sliding/spinning.
As you get faster and faster, you will soon want to switch to track pads which will perform better and last much longer than stock pads., i.e. tolerate the higher hear better. You may also consider switching to a better brake fluid so you don't boil the fluid and get air bubbles, causing a soft pedal, or worse.
05-09-2016, 09:51 PM
#6
I don't know much about your specific application, but depending on your driving style it is not uncommon for someone to burn through a set of OEM pads when on track, within a couple of days or even a weekend. As others have mentioned, its best to first learn about what to look for - the picture shared accurately shows the angle one would view their own brake pads when the car is parked. Just by peering into the wheels between sessions you can get a pretty good idea of how much you're burning / using.
I would suggest stepping up your brake pads to a "mixed use". While most here would argue do one (street only) or the other (track only), it can be a good way of slowing your usage rate (again driving style dependent). If you speak with any of the vendors or your favorite track shop, they can definitely point you in a better direction. Keep in mind some of these types of pads will produce more noise during regular street driving.
As you switch to a more aggressive pad, it does make sense to move into a more aggressive brake fluid. Again, most shops that do support track driving cars will be able to point you to something that works - it doesn't have to be the most expensive stuff on earth as you're only doing 25 minute sessions, not winning Le Mans. Hope this helps!
I would suggest stepping up your brake pads to a "mixed use". While most here would argue do one (street only) or the other (track only), it can be a good way of slowing your usage rate (again driving style dependent). If you speak with any of the vendors or your favorite track shop, they can definitely point you in a better direction. Keep in mind some of these types of pads will produce more noise during regular street driving.
As you switch to a more aggressive pad, it does make sense to move into a more aggressive brake fluid. Again, most shops that do support track driving cars will be able to point you to something that works - it doesn't have to be the most expensive stuff on earth as you're only doing 25 minute sessions, not winning Le Mans. Hope this helps!
05-09-2016, 10:53 PM
#7
Intermediate
I just went down this same expensive path with my brakes. As I got faster, I went through OEM brake pads really fast...like only 2 days at Sebring. My goal was to track the car stock to allow me to progress through experience versus mods. I started with Nitto NT-01 tires as my first mod 2 years ago for safety since tires needed durability at these speeds and temperatures.
Just last month, I just switched to PFC-08 all around and it really made a big difference in durability but also dropped my lap time 1.4 seconds to 2:29.1 on an otherwise stock Cayman S like yours. Lack of fade and great initial bite allowed me to brake later and harder. I just switch back to OEM pads after I get back home. I think you should upgrade your pads as well.
Just last month, I just switched to PFC-08 all around and it really made a big difference in durability but also dropped my lap time 1.4 seconds to 2:29.1 on an otherwise stock Cayman S like yours. Lack of fade and great initial bite allowed me to brake later and harder. I just switch back to OEM pads after I get back home. I think you should upgrade your pads as well.
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05-09-2016, 11:18 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
I'm reminded of a student in a miata who ran out of gas not once but twice at a DE weekend. He kept telling his instructor, "but I get 30 miles to the gallon!".
981 has incredible brakes. Give one of the rennlist sponsors a call and ask for advice about upgraded pads.
981 has incredible brakes. Give one of the rennlist sponsors a call and ask for advice about upgraded pads.
05-10-2016, 03:55 PM
#9
05-18-2016, 05:29 PM
#10
Drifting
Switch to pagid yellows. The OEM stuff is good but wears quickly. One set in two weekends is possible. Your rotors will go quickly too.
Bad news for you is as you start driving harder, your front driver side (on clockwise tracks) tire shoulder will wear VERY quickly esp. with crappy oem eagle tires. So you'll need to address that at some point or go through expensive tires every couple DEs. I've seen good wear with RE-11 tires. Next problem will be when you want to carry your own tires to the track. The custom trailer hitch is not cheap.
I use powertech when I have to. They typically don't charge tech if you are a customer. Protosport is good but hard to get hold off. Stable Energies is close by but they charge 100 bucks for tech and their labor rate is higher.
I'm in West New York if you want to form track addicts club
just pm me with any other questions. I have 3 track buddies with new caymans.
Bad news for you is as you start driving harder, your front driver side (on clockwise tracks) tire shoulder will wear VERY quickly esp. with crappy oem eagle tires. So you'll need to address that at some point or go through expensive tires every couple DEs. I've seen good wear with RE-11 tires. Next problem will be when you want to carry your own tires to the track. The custom trailer hitch is not cheap.
I use powertech when I have to. They typically don't charge tech if you are a customer. Protosport is good but hard to get hold off. Stable Energies is close by but they charge 100 bucks for tech and their labor rate is higher.
I'm in West New York if you want to form track addicts club
just pm me with any other questions. I have 3 track buddies with new caymans.
05-18-2016, 09:27 PM
#11
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The wear on the stock pads will increase dramatically when they reach temperatures seen in track usage. You're a candidate for track pads that can handle these elevated temperatures.
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Your Porsche Parts Superstore
Parts | Tech-Session | Facebook | Youtube
Jason Burkett
Paragon Products - Porsche Parts & Accessories*- 800.200.9366
Tech Session - Porsche Tech & Info*- 361.289.8834
jason@paragon-products.com
05-19-2016, 02:08 PM
#12
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Based on the track driving you should definitely upgrade the pads. I am actually kind of shocked that a shop knowing you track drive the car would recommend putting stock pads back in, unless you had told them you did not want a potential for any noise on the street.
My take on the whole thing is whoever looked at your pads at the track and said they were worn out just didn't actually know what they were looking at.
I'm not sure exactly where you are in Northern Jersey but you are more than welcome to stop by here and we will take a look at your pads.
My take on the whole thing is whoever looked at your pads at the track and said they were worn out just didn't actually know what they were looking at.
I'm not sure exactly where you are in Northern Jersey but you are more than welcome to stop by here and we will take a look at your pads.
