watkins glenn track talk video?
05-08-2016, 01:36 PM
#16
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Oh lord... Cones are the bane of track learning and an easy tool for lazy instructors. They promote point to point driving. Discourage actual study of track detail, nuance, texture and on and on. And to top it off, they are usually in the wrong place. When instructing, my use of cones involves repeatedly saying "don't look at it". "$%$%$#%$% - why is that cone there?" and "Ignore it"...
For a first time driver at a high speed track like WGI, cones can be a helpful day one tool, but then they become worse than a crutch. One thing that I have seen and encouraged Chief Instructors to do if cones are in place - is remove them on Sunday. But don't warn anyone, including the instructors . The people who drive a good line as well as the instructors who don't use them as a crutch don't even notice. Others are lost and learn an important lesson.
For a first time driver at a high speed track like WGI, cones can be a helpful day one tool, but then they become worse than a crutch. One thing that I have seen and encouraged Chief Instructors to do if cones are in place - is remove them on Sunday. But don't warn anyone, including the instructors . The people who drive a good line as well as the instructors who don't use them as a crutch don't even notice. Others are lost and learn an important lesson.
In nearly EVERY case, when cones are used, then removed, people's vision rises, the focal length lengthens and control inputs smooth out.
There are PLENTY of landmarks at track level, eye level and above that allow excellent and continuous sight pictures to be constructed.
There are PLENTY of landmarks at track level, eye level and above that allow excellent and continuous sight pictures to be constructed.
05-08-2016, 02:03 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Invariably someone hits one, and it then sits on the line for 2-3 sessions. I tracked out too far in one turn, hit one of those stupid cones which popped out my radiator grill. You have to pull the entire bumper to reinstall it. I never teach my students to pay any attention to the cones. They are not fixed reference points.
05-09-2016, 07:38 PM
#19
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05-16-2016, 10:30 AM
#21
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Well, after comparing same driver, same car, same spec from pre-paving to post paving at the Glen, I am fairly certain no track records will be smashed and what improvements people DO make in their personal bests will be due to their own increased confidence and comfort...
The F2000 Pro cars were no quicker (although it was very cold and generally crappy this past weekend) but the Trans Am cars were way off (like 1-1.5 seconds OFF) their times from the last time they ran there.
Bottom line is that there is NO MAGIC, and to go faster, you'll have to DRIVE faster!
The F2000 Pro cars were no quicker (although it was very cold and generally crappy this past weekend) but the Trans Am cars were way off (like 1-1.5 seconds OFF) their times from the last time they ran there.
Bottom line is that there is NO MAGIC, and to go faster, you'll have to DRIVE faster!
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05-16-2016, 11:16 AM
#22
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Well, after comparing same driver, same car, same spec from pre-paving to post paving at the Glen, I am fairly certain no track records will be smashed and what improvements people DO make in their personal bests will be due to their own increased confidence and comfort...
The F2000 Pro cars were no quicker (although it was very cold and generally crappy this past weekend) but the Trans Am cars were way off (like 1-1.5 seconds OFF) their times from the last time they ran there.
Bottom line is that there is NO MAGIC, and to go faster, you'll have to DRIVE faster!
The F2000 Pro cars were no quicker (although it was very cold and generally crappy this past weekend) but the Trans Am cars were way off (like 1-1.5 seconds OFF) their times from the last time they ran there.
Bottom line is that there is NO MAGIC, and to go faster, you'll have to DRIVE faster!
Being there all weekend, the temps went from about 80 on Thursday to the mid 40s yesterday. The track was pretty good Saturday and was not fast Sunday morning until around 10 am when it got some more temp in it. The 30s during the overnight cooled everything off. In TA2, the fastest laps were all set at the second or last lap of the race, which is a first for them.
Atlantics where around a 1:44.xxx when the track was pretty good. That is close to the lap record set last July at a 1:43.9xx. I'm not sure how the FC and FF guys did, but it was too cold for them to be real fast.
IMHO, having been there 8 out of the last 14 days, the track is faster, though not by a giant margin. If they change the bus stop curbs, the track will be another .5 faster. There is time there if people really study the curbs. These thoughts are backed up by 3-4 professional drivers/coaches that I've talked to or worked with.
05-16-2016, 12:14 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Well, after comparing same driver, same car, same spec from pre-paving to post paving at the Glen, I am fairly certain no track records will be smashed and what improvements people DO make in their personal bests will be due to their own increased confidence and comfort...
The F2000 Pro cars were no quicker (although it was very cold and generally crappy this past weekend) but the Trans Am cars were way off (like 1-1.5 seconds OFF) their times from the last time they ran there.
Bottom line is that there is NO MAGIC, and to go faster, you'll have to DRIVE faster!
The F2000 Pro cars were no quicker (although it was very cold and generally crappy this past weekend) but the Trans Am cars were way off (like 1-1.5 seconds OFF) their times from the last time they ran there.
Bottom line is that there is NO MAGIC, and to go faster, you'll have to DRIVE faster!
There were two challenges for me there after the repave. First was the disappearance of all the familiar visual references on the track surface. I depended heavily on them for car placement. It took time for me to find new ones, all of which were well above the surface. I suppose the good part of that was it forced me to keep my eyes up more than I might have otherwise. Second, the curbing in the bus stop has changed sufficiently that I never felt like I found the fastest way through there.
05-16-2016, 01:43 PM
#24
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I'm not sure where you looked.
Atlantics where around a 1:44.xxx when the track was pretty good. That is close to the lap record set last July at a 1:43.9xx.
IMHO, having been there 8 out of the last 14 days, the track is faster, though not by a giant margin.
These thoughts are backed up by 3-4 professional drivers/coaches that I've talked to or worked with.
Atlantics where around a 1:44.xxx when the track was pretty good. That is close to the lap record set last July at a 1:43.9xx.
IMHO, having been there 8 out of the last 14 days, the track is faster, though not by a giant margin.
These thoughts are backed up by 3-4 professional drivers/coaches that I've talked to or worked with.
Three years ago, Paul Fix in TA was in the low 1:50's (and the the team I worked with was in the 1:49's on test day). Fastest from this past weekend that I could find was 1:51.5-1:51.7, IIRC. Race times were, of course, slower.
The fact that the Atlantic record was not broken by the guy that set it before, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS BEEN QUICKER EVERYWHERE ELSE SINCE THAT RECORD WAS SET, shows me the track is NOT quicker...
The F2000 Pro series is my benchmark, because the top drivers have years of data there and generally run more consistently than the "pro drivers/coaches" that you and I know.
This year, Steve Bamford (Bam-Bam, former National Champion) was OFF his best from last year by about the same or a little more than Grant in his Atlantic.
So, with ALL the new paving, and ALL the smooth surface, the track is not only not quicker, it's not quite as quick, according to the data I have pre and post repave.
Will there be folks at the end of the month quicker? Sure. But that will come from them, not the track. I think the curbs at the Bus Stop are a real issue...
Woulda, coulda, shoulda... At VIR, EVERYONE was quicker after the repave. Some by up to four seconds, Keith Grant in the same Atlantic as he drove at the Glen by over two. Not so at The Glen.
05-16-2016, 02:28 PM
#25
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Matt, that's why it's your opinion.
For Grant's Atlantic time, as him how many of the other events he ran in the rain? I had lap times and sector times on him Saturday and Sunday - they show different than you are telling.
Three years ago, Paul Fix in TA was in the low 1:50's (and the the team I worked with was in the 1:49's on test day). Fastest from this past weekend that I could find was 1:51.5-1:51.7, IIRC. Race times were, of course, slower.
The fact that the Atlantic record was not broken by the guy that set it before, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS BEEN QUICKER EVERYWHERE ELSE SINCE THAT RECORD WAS SET, shows me the track is NOT quicker...
The F2000 Pro series is my benchmark, because the top drivers have years of data there and generally run more consistently than the "pro drivers/coaches" that you and I know.
This year, Steve Bamford (Bam-Bam, former National Champion) was OFF his best from last year by about the same or a little more than Grant in his Atlantic.
So, with ALL the new paving, and ALL the smooth surface, the track is not only not quicker, it's not quite as quick, according to the data I have pre and post repave.
Will there be folks at the end of the month quicker? Sure. But that will come from them, not the track. I think the curbs at the Bus Stop are a real issue...
Woulda, coulda, shoulda... At VIR, EVERYONE was quicker after the repave. Some by up to four seconds, Keith Grant in the same Atlantic as he drove at the Glen by over two. Not so at The Glen.
For Grant's Atlantic time, as him how many of the other events he ran in the rain? I had lap times and sector times on him Saturday and Sunday - they show different than you are telling.
Three years ago, Paul Fix in TA was in the low 1:50's (and the the team I worked with was in the 1:49's on test day). Fastest from this past weekend that I could find was 1:51.5-1:51.7, IIRC. Race times were, of course, slower.
The fact that the Atlantic record was not broken by the guy that set it before, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS BEEN QUICKER EVERYWHERE ELSE SINCE THAT RECORD WAS SET, shows me the track is NOT quicker...
The F2000 Pro series is my benchmark, because the top drivers have years of data there and generally run more consistently than the "pro drivers/coaches" that you and I know.
This year, Steve Bamford (Bam-Bam, former National Champion) was OFF his best from last year by about the same or a little more than Grant in his Atlantic.
So, with ALL the new paving, and ALL the smooth surface, the track is not only not quicker, it's not quite as quick, according to the data I have pre and post repave.
Will there be folks at the end of the month quicker? Sure. But that will come from them, not the track. I think the curbs at the Bus Stop are a real issue...
Woulda, coulda, shoulda... At VIR, EVERYONE was quicker after the repave. Some by up to four seconds, Keith Grant in the same Atlantic as he drove at the Glen by over two. Not so at The Glen.
The TA results are here http://gotransam.cdn.racersites.com/...by%20Class.pdf
They had snow during the race yesterday, so to say that the data and times are a fair comparison (40* day versus 80*) to the previous races is not accurate.
The bus stop curbs will make a difference, but they can be mitigated some amount. There are changes in other spots that are just about as important.
But, you're mileage will vary. I think you'll see different when you get to the track and see it as the photos and reports don't do it justice.
05-16-2016, 03:09 PM
#26
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I was there with Cups, and it was cool and cloudy, but not damp or rainy (what we call a great day at The Glen).
My experience was that almost everyone was finding it difficult to get the times they got last year. As amateurs we are probably more negatively affected by the change in visuals and curbing. But having arrived with the hope I'd be faster, it was comforting to know I wasn't the only one off my pace.
Guess I'll have to earn my better times.
My experience was that almost everyone was finding it difficult to get the times they got last year. As amateurs we are probably more negatively affected by the change in visuals and curbing. But having arrived with the hope I'd be faster, it was comforting to know I wasn't the only one off my pace.
Guess I'll have to earn my better times.
05-16-2016, 03:23 PM
#27
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Fair enough, Matt. Amy is a great yardstick, but she is faster elsewhere, too.
My only point is that I think somehow people construct this idea that because this place is now smooth and ground flat, that they're going to go a lot faster, and that is just not true. Nothing I have seen from the data sent to me this weekend, despite the adverse conditions, makes me believe that the track is much, if any quicker. Yet.
As Rick says, drivers will have to earn it.
The fact that most attending C&S, Joey G and other days held there since the repave are slower than they have been before tells me a lot. That's it.
Will see myself very soon.
My only point is that I think somehow people construct this idea that because this place is now smooth and ground flat, that they're going to go a lot faster, and that is just not true. Nothing I have seen from the data sent to me this weekend, despite the adverse conditions, makes me believe that the track is much, if any quicker. Yet.
As Rick says, drivers will have to earn it.
The fact that most attending C&S, Joey G and other days held there since the repave are slower than they have been before tells me a lot. That's it.
Will see myself very soon.
05-16-2016, 03:33 PM
#28
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Fair enough, Matt. Amy is a great yardstick, but she is faster elsewhere, too.
My only point is that I think somehow people construct this idea that because this place is now smooth and ground flat, that they're going to go a lot faster, and that is just not true. Nothing I have seen from the data sent to me this weekend, despite the adverse conditions, makes me believe that the track is much, if any quicker. Yet.
As Rick says, drivers will have to earn it.
The fact that most attending C&S, Joey G and other days held there since the repave are slower than they have been before tells me a lot. That's it.
Will see myself very soon.
My only point is that I think somehow people construct this idea that because this place is now smooth and ground flat, that they're going to go a lot faster, and that is just not true. Nothing I have seen from the data sent to me this weekend, despite the adverse conditions, makes me believe that the track is much, if any quicker. Yet.
As Rick says, drivers will have to earn it.
The fact that most attending C&S, Joey G and other days held there since the repave are slower than they have been before tells me a lot. That's it.
Will see myself very soon.
It will be interesting to see the time sheets throughout the year.
05-16-2016, 03:57 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
curbing
in which corners can you take the curbing in a GT4 (stockGT P-car, no mods) and in which corners do they upset the car too much?
are the curbs multi level like some at NJMP? (from videos it doesn't seem like that)
I found this post pave video on YouTube: video
not sure if the driver is on RL; would be nice to here his thoughts
and he uses the curbs a lot on tracking out of corners
the curbs in the chicane seem to upset the car a lot
thoughts, feedback welcome
are the curbs multi level like some at NJMP? (from videos it doesn't seem like that)
I found this post pave video on YouTube: video
and he uses the curbs a lot on tracking out of corners
the curbs in the chicane seem to upset the car a lot
thoughts, feedback welcome
05-16-2016, 04:00 PM
#30
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Ross is right when he talks about using sensory input sessions and "driving the car to the point where it pushes back" to calibrate the driver's butt, IMO.
Having taught tracks like Road Atlanta, Lime Rock, Mid-Ohio, Roebling Road, Summit Point and Watkins Glen over the last thirty years trough multiple additions of concrete patches, curbing changes and repaves, I know that developing a sight picture that combines references at several different levels is most effective.
MarcD, the way the car reacts to the curbing is dependent on many, MANY variables, pretty much ALL under the driver's control.
Lateral and longitudinal loading (steering, throttle and brakes), thrust positive or negative (throttle opening such that the car is distributing weight in a particular way) pitch sensitivity of the car, the shock's ability to absorb the initial (and subsequent) bump and keep the tire on the track surface without losing control of the spring package, the trajectory of approach and angle of incidence when you get there... Also, how FAR you are into the curb is critical.
It's VERY important for people who are testing themselves on this new surface to reign in and control expectations, in order to focus on the task at hand.
Best execution of fundamental skills...