RallyeChris

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the GT4 auto-blips when downshifting in sport mode. No heel-toe skill needed!

danielyonker

Mark, if you were as good as you make yourself out to be, you would be at the track today in any number of capacities with any given professional outfit. Instead you are trolling a website for club racers, DE enthusiasts and Porsche lovers, acting like a know-it-all and pissing everyone off. Regardless if you are right or wrong, it is safe to say that no one listens to you anymore.

Seriously dude, go to a Ferrari forum, or something.

GTgears

There isn't a Shakey head big enough.

One beauty of free advice on the internet is one is free to try it and free to ignore it. I just don't understand repeating yourself over and over because someone has a different opinion. This does nothing to assist the thread starter in his progression as a driver. He can try it both ways next time he's on track. And then he will pretty quickly discover that the professionals and njmp regulars are right.

Its not a straight line drag race. There are many instances where the .2 seconds of lost drive on the shift is greater than the extra acceleration you would get with more mechanical advantage (gearing) and higher horsepower (rpm) and this is doubly true in instances where more horsepower on throtle will upset the chassis and break traction. One of the weaknesses of the Cayman chassis that many fight with is corner exit on throttle push. Sometimes the solution to that problem is a higher gear with less power to the ground and not overdriving the front tires.

myBailey07

In South Africa, where I am from, we have a saying: "Arguing with some people is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you'll figure out the pig is actually liking it..."

mark kibort

yep, you are right , but we are not talkig about a curve where there is traction or chassis unsettling. this is a standard approach and exit to a slow turn. the main point here is trying to show that there is a 150hp difference between running the GT4 in 3rd gear vs a nice downshift on the approach and exit. there is not a "trade" off or "sacrifice" of power for the ".2sec" upshift time.... do the math. 100 hp for 4 seconds vs .2 seconds of slightly less than 0hp. ...... do the average... the 100hp for 4 seconds will always win out.
Im advocating a lower gear for the GT4 at turn2. that's it... anyone really fast will do this.. and if they don't, they would be faster. im talking exit speed and forces...... the steering will be near straight and its good practice to be able to do this and limit throttle to avoid any chassis unbalance, which as proven by others racing this curve, there is no isses running the correct gear!! (see BMW GTS 3 race video)

that's not true. and you know it. there are a ton of great club racers out there. some get a break, some make the incredible investment, and run the pro races. I run as many or more races annually than most pros and when they show up in an equal car to what I have, I have no issues with keeping up. that's a given. this battle only came, ironically, from the other posers here that have to disagree on anything that doesn't jive with what they have read or heard. im hear to tell you that the physics is solid here. most don't understand ... just listen to Dave about the "noise" at the higher RPM revs! why does he think this... because torque falls off to fast ? im here to tell you that he has been programed that that is something to consider.. its not. its backward. its the HP curve. I really am here to help and discuss.... not boast about my experience, but I do have a lot ... enough I feel to make good suggestions.

again, my only comment was the suggestion of downshifting to 2nd at turn 5 at NJMP. the car was at 3500rpm and 150hp down from what he could be at. even if you are ProCoach Peter, at 62mph, the GT4 can use the downshift and be able to take advantage of 50-75more HP for a couple of seconds. im hear to tell you that in a race or hot lap, its valuable time and great practice and greater control on approaches to turns such as turn 5 at NJMP

DISCLAIMER: im not talking all cars at that turn 5, im only revering to the OP's car. an Aston Martin V8 would have much lower gearing that this wouldn't be possible or needed (for example) main take away, take that turn at an RPM that allows for max HP to be used on the exit, maybe 100 to 200feet past the exit birm.

more the reason to use it. faster shift and autoblip... like a video game!

Thundermoose

A friend of mine posted this link on TrackJunkies

http://www.onpointdyno.com/?p=3306

good description of HP and Torque.

GTgears

Mark,
I stopped reading after page 3 but your first post on page 1 said many turns, not just turn 2. And then you defended that for a couple pages. If you back peddled and changed your argument later to just turn 2 I didn't read it...

38D

Back on topic...

Someone already stated this, but you need to be giving more throttle before the apex. You are coasting too much down to the apex, then stomping on it when you are near straight.

For a coulee of specific turns:

T3 - this should be nearly flat out if not flat out. You absolutely don't need to be braking here.

After T7 - you should be giving full throttle until T8.

In T10 (octopuss) - way late on the powers here. You should be holding on for dear life, almost flying off to the right. If you don't hit that curbing on the right, go faster!

T12 on to the the front straight - this is an easy flat out turn in pretty much every car. Don't lift!

A GT4 is probably a ~1:28 car at this track, possibly faster. You're doing well, just keep at it and get more seat time. Ride with as many good instructors as you can. A good instructor means someone that is fast, not just has a fast car.

mark kibort

i was always revering to turn 5 . It was always about the GT4 and not other cars at this turn. And it was always about getting the engine in the higher HP range for exit of those turns where you wouldnt be upsetting the car on the exit or to the entrance to the turn . (basically traditional straight approach turns, wiith 90 degree apex and straight exits toward following turns)

(edit) yes, i did mention from the first post , "many turns" i was a real quick video review of the track. after looking at each turn very closely, the last few turns at low RPM he was not at full throttle , so that advice wouldnt help him.... someone running 1:28 vs 1:37 might be helped... but that turn complex advice would be left to actually driving the track.... i dont have have to experience the track for the turn 5 advice.

in this case, as i have said repeatedly since "page 3" , you are leaving 100 to 150hp on the table weather you run super fast like Procoach Peter, at 62mph or at a lower speed like the OP at 45mph through turn . its not a "gear selection" for all cars, is a RPM /HP target at entrance for control and exit for Power. (and power is directly related/ proportional to acceleration at ANY vehicle speed)
the bmw video was a good example. much lower gearing, he's in 3rd (most of those guys run a 4.45:1 rear end so their 3rd is like most cars 2nd) and you can see his exit RPM such that he shifts out of 3rd at just past the exit birms. that was my advice for the OP. downshift into turn 5, get more RPM to work with and yeild almost 100 to 150hp for near 4 seconds on the exit... that is HUGE in my book. but, to each his own.... anyone that doesnt do this is leaving time on the table.

Thundermooose!!! that was an awesome article... where did you find that. perfectly sums up what ive been saying for years in one concise article..... nice fine. a must read for rule makers and racers alike... and Carol Shelby should take note too!
EDIT: There are a couple of things on the article that are a little incorrect.... the part about max torque and volumetric or peak efficiency as well as that point where there is the most amount of air and fuel being burned... that's not really true. Max power is where the most amount of fuel and air that will be burned. HP-second is the unit measure of work or energy. higher the hp, the greater that rate fuel and air flow. Volumetric efficiency is a ratio of the displacement volume rate based on RPM to the density of that volume. Sometimes volumetric efficiency can peak at high HP levels, sometimes at peak torque ranges.
no one right answer there... this is engine dependent, and cant be indicated by peak torque RPM levels alone.

Veloce Raptor

+1

C-gt3

nine pages of yet another classic rennlist posts...
how has this thread not been closed yet? lol

MarcD147

this thread has produced some really great feedback. I hope to see VR on a track and get some in person advice. I have spoken to ProCoach and will hopefully get together with him for some of his coaching.
Frank also provided some good advice and a video offline.

as many noticed there also have been less helpful back and forth. no judgment from me but I consensus is clear. therefore and as suggested this thread has run its life and I will close it (never done that before).

Hopefully I will be able to post some more videos for feedback at the end of May after WG DE