Mark, come iracing with the rennlist group some time. We can do Laguna seca.

 

Agree, but your journey at the limit is mostly set in stone the minute you turn in, if you overcook sure you don't add gas at/before/sometimes after the apex, but if you are doing that you aren't going fast you are saving your a** from the speed, angle you approached the corner with which didn't match the capabilities of the car/geometry of the corner

 

The perhaps glib answer is that you should "early apex" any time it (safely) increases your corner exit speed. Every corner has its own personality. Try shifting turn-in earlier and later, see how it affects exit speed, stability, etc.

 

I would rather not explain the phenomena as "an early apex," although I often ask drivers to apex earlier and for a longer period of time than they initially practice.

It used to explained "Apex as late as possible, as soon as you can!"

 

I agree.

This is where language and exact words become very important. We are talking relative here, not absolute. So it should really be "earlier apex" vs "later apex."

 

hmmm.. you see, more things left for interpretation. I call it what it is, and its not for all turns. an early apex is going to the apex , earlier. it changes the angle, speeds and steering angles, on the turn from the start. it can help or hurt you in more ways that one, but it depends on the turn

Yes.. and thats exactly what should be done to see if it works, but it doesnt address the dynamics of in-traffic-environements, or, building in some safety margin for newer drivers... an early apex , on some turns can do this

Love to! How do you do it ,and what do i need.?

Yes, exactly! when used for newer drivers, you got it exactly right. you sacrifice the speed through the turn, but save you "a**", IF you got the turn in speed wrong..... conversely, if you get the turn in speed wrong on a late apex, what happens? there is NO more room to slow, so you end up going deeper, which there is no room, so you end up straight off or worse...... you dont want to go off, so you turn in and the speed is beyond the cars "geometry/capability" and you spin. this is the MOST common cause of a spin or "off". early apex solves this problem ...... in some turns. however, if done right at the correct speeds, it is not much , if at all , slower than traditional late apex (again, depending on the turn). Finally, its a useful racing too and technique to fight off would be passers or making a position pass as well.

 

Then talk about the timing, hand speed and amplitude of turn in, rather than "going to the apex earlier."

Geez, Mark. It's your words people have trouble with...

 

T8 is similar but not the same as T1, as T1 is a true 90deg corner (hence "The Ninety") and T8 is more of an angle so you need to rotate the car even more. Also, T11 leading onto front straight.....the black rubber marks on the inside curbing shows the racers take this much earlier than is taught.

At the end of the day, you want to enter the turn at a point where you can get back on the throttle soonest, be it "early", "late", or anywhere in between. Finding that point is what fascinates the hell out of me with this "hobby"!

Gary

 

Thanks for all the info and ideas, we'll see how my knowledge progresses after the upcoming DE season.

 

Great post and good examples!

The Ninety's downhill approach, increasing camber gain into the apex and exiting the corner are similar to Turn 8, and you're absolutely correct in calling for more rotation in Turn 8 in order to "open" the exit of the corner and to get to WOT sooner.

T8 vMin is typically 7-9 mph less for well-driven larger, heavier GT cars (GTA2/GTB1) but can be the same in light, purpose built sports racing cars. The key is HOW SOON CAN THE SPEED TRACE COME UP! Cool comparison.

T11 is interesting because the track width at exit is SO much wider than the entrance. This is a superb place to apex earlier, as long as the car is pointed slightly to the inside of the trajectory the driver has selected for it! A lot of very confident drivers do this by being proactive on the throttle and having a neutral car underneath them. THIS is how people start going really quickly.

Thanks for that post. Great track, great concept!

 

People always get caught up in the words... what's wrong with people!!??

But yes, we can frame it as you ask as well.

 

Dude.

It's a written Internet forum. All we have are words.

Good grief.

 

Thanks Peter--T8 is almost the opposite of T11; wide at entry and apex area but the exit curbing comes at you REAL QUICK due to the angle of the turn....and T1 is much more downhill than people think--check the link for the elevation map. It drops 35' from start/finish to the turn, and then almost another 40' to the entrance of the Esses. I'm not a NASCAR fan but I do watch them when they are there, and that's one of the reasons they're all smokin' their brakes going in there!

file:///C:/Users/Gary/Downloads/WGI_Elevation_Map.pdf

 

Speaking of the Glen, I will be doing a full track walk for Niagara PCA on Memorial Day, Monday May 30, at the end of their first day of their DE, and will be there all week. Very detailed and well worth your time !

 

I need to check my data but I feel like I am trail braking less and less. My mental model is to brake a bit sooner but to get back to throttle once I begin making turn. The only place that I really feel that I trail back at TWS is 8, 10, and 13. With aero I only need to lift (and I think if I had bigger cajones I wouldn't need to at all) at 7 and 12.