Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

R&T article: The Solution To Racing Instructor Deaths? Get Them Out Of The Car

 
Old 09-04-2015, 09:50 PM
  #16  
ProCoach
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Small Business Partner

 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 12,630
Received 46 Likes on 36 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
Chin's flexible policy regarding ride-alongs works very well because of the overall system Chin has created, which includes detailed drivers meetings which set the right tone for the day, morning warm-up sessions, quality instruction, high standards for promotions, run group status being specific to each track, instructors not being able to solo Green students (instead needing to coach them towards full Yellow or Blue solo status), close monitoring of what's happening on track and effectively dealing with any issues that are observed, etc.

By contrast, organizations which impose a lot of rules sometimes pay a price in terms of impaired driver development and channeling exuberance into aspects of driving which aren't covered by the rules (e.g., I've seen evidence that passing anywhere with a point can lead to a lower incident rate for experienced drivers, as compared to passing only in straights, perhaps due to less frustration). Adding 'rules' doesn't always make things safer ...
Good post. The culture has to be correct, first.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Professional, Private Driver Performance Analysis
Authorized Sales and Support for AiM Sports, VBOX Video, MoTeC, AutoSport Labs, RaceVoice LLC, Apex Pro and Cosworth Electronics
ProCoach is offline  
Old 09-05-2015, 04:40 PM
  #17  
mkd944
User
 
mkd944's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Manifold View Post
Chin's flexible policy regarding ride-alongs works very well because of the overall system Chin has created, which includes detailed drivers meetings which set the right tone for the day, morning warm-up sessions, quality instruction, high standards for promotions, run group status being specific to each track, instructors not being able to solo Green students (instead needing to coach them towards full Yellow or Blue solo status), close monitoring of what's happening on track and effectively dealing with any issues that are observed, etc.

By contrast, organizations which impose a lot of rules sometimes pay a price in terms of impaired driver development and channeling exuberance into aspects of driving which aren't covered by the rules (e.g., I've seen evidence that passing anywhere with a point can lead to a lower incident rate for experienced drivers, as compared to passing only in straights, perhaps due to less frustration). Adding 'rules' doesn't always make things safer ...
+1 Excellent post!
mkd944 is offline  
Old 09-06-2015, 11:43 AM
  #18  
Terry L
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Terry L's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 938
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I came up through PCA and have been instructing for 10 years with them so I have certain biases in favor of their approach. I have also run and instructed with other programs and I have taken a few Barber and other courses over the years. So, based on that, I think :
1. The comments over remote radio in the Skippy program were virtually useless to me. I'm sitting in a noisy formula car, racers going by, trying to decipher cryptic comments summing up my entire lap over a hand held radio through my helmet, with a max of maybe 30 seconds before I'm back on track.
2. Much more useful were discussions with instructor/observers after the session.
3. Safety protocols vary widely among programs and among events. The worst driving I have ever seen, leading to a big time crash of a brand new and very expensive race car, took place at a high level, exclusive and prestigious program - and everybody there knew that the final crash would be highly likely if not inevitable.
3. It is fair to say that when declining enrollments threatened the very existence of the for profit programs and, to a lesser extent, the car club DE programs, there was a lot of pressure to ease up on students and solo drivers. But I can't say that there was a correlation with serious incidents or deaths - maybe, but there is no data.
4. PCA type extended passing in the upper two run groups seems to have been successful. Although some slower drivers are still hesitant to allow the pass in the curve, they need to be comfortable and the faster cars just need to wait.
5. The ability and willingness of a program to send a driver home is critical. We don't need to be ***** but we need to be willing to do so, and endure the threats and screams of protest, when the need is apparent.
Terry L is offline  
Old 09-06-2015, 03:37 PM
  #19  
Carrera51
Addict
Rennlist Member

Rennlist
Site Sponsor

 
Carrera51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Keswick, VA
Posts: 3,539
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

My feeling is that beginners need an instructor in the right seat. Our feedback on what the car is doing in real time helps them understand what it is we are talking about and what they may read in books on the subject. Instructors being in the right seat is also a calming influence for a newbie who is on sensory overload their first time driving on the track.
Carrera51 is offline  
Old 09-07-2015, 04:29 AM
  #20  
Cory M
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Cory M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

How do the motorcycle clubs do it?
Cory M is offline  
Old 09-07-2015, 09:32 AM
  #21  
Mark Dreyer
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Mark Dreyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 3,887
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Cory M View Post
How do the motorcycle clubs do it?
My brother in law instructs with a motorcycle club. They do lead follow.
Mark Dreyer is offline  
Old 09-08-2015, 09:14 PM
  #22  
ProCoach
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Small Business Partner

 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 12,630
Received 46 Likes on 36 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
3. Safety protocols vary widely among programs and among events. The worst driving I have ever seen, leading to a big time crash of a brand new and very expensive race car, took place at a high level, exclusive and prestigious program - and everybody there knew that the final crash would be highly likely if not inevitable.

5. The ability and willingness of a program to send a driver home is critical. We don't need to be ***** but we need to be willing to do so, and endure the threats and screams of protest, when the need is apparent.
^^THIS^^

Most program organizers and leadership are unwilling to do the latter, even they observe and sometimes even catalog the former...

Drivers often indicate, by a recognizable pattern of behavior on-track and off, that they are likely going to have an incident.

Organizers MUST MAKE SURE that they don't hesitate to preserve event safety by trusting their gut and following through on policy and protocol.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Professional, Private Driver Performance Analysis
Authorized Sales and Support for AiM Sports, VBOX Video, MoTeC, AutoSport Labs, RaceVoice LLC, Apex Pro and Cosworth Electronics
ProCoach is offline  
Old 09-08-2015, 10:38 PM
  #23  
DTMiller
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
DTMiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Fading...
Posts: 3,123
Received 25 Likes on 20 Posts
Default R&T article: The Solution To Racing Instructor Deaths? Get Them Out Of The Car

I'm curious what the off track pattern is.
DTMiller is online now  
Old 09-08-2015, 11:47 PM
  #24  
JCP911S
Addict
Rennlist Member

 
JCP911S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I have been a PCA instructor for over 20 years.

It's all about culture.

If you want to come to a DE, and learn how to drive, and respect the consequences that you are accepting, then people like me will strap their tired butts into your right seat, and share their experience with you.

If you want to be an A**hole, then there are a lot of other venues that will take your money... its a business, after all.
JCP911S is offline  
Old 09-09-2015, 09:26 AM
  #25  
TXE36
Super User
 
TXE36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: TX
Posts: 2,384
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by DTMiller View Post
I'm curious what the off track pattern is.
Posting on social media that they are going to the track for the first time and they are going to drive FLAT OUT. Boasting on the paddock to their classmates about some spectacular, but unsafe thing that they did. Offering to run in the next highest run group w/o experience to resolve a scheduling conflict. Etc...

It is usually painfully obvious when compared to the students there to learn and who are concerned about being safe. I imagine there is a racer equivalent pattern as well.

-Mike
TXE36 is offline  
Old 09-09-2015, 03:45 PM
  #26  
perfectlap
Super User
 
perfectlap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 16,265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Spend more time concentrating on improving safety at the tracks. But I imagine this is costly without people who can pay for right seat instruction.
perfectlap is offline  
Old 09-09-2015, 04:10 PM
  #27  
CosmosMpower
Super User
 
CosmosMpower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: The Republic
Posts: 2,533
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by 85Gold View Post
It's called Track Nignt America put on by the SCCA of all people

Peter
From what I've heard it's one of the most dangerous HPDE events in the DFW area.
CosmosMpower is offline  
Old 09-09-2015, 09:06 PM
  #28  
ProCoach
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Small Business Partner

 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 12,630
Received 46 Likes on 36 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by DTMiller View Post
I'm curious what the off track pattern is.
Several ways. The off-track patterns of behavior that indicate a propensity for incidents include entitlement, argumentative and closed-minded attitudes, excessive intensity, boastful and self-promoting statements, asking for exceptions repeatedly without supplying or demonstrating competence or reason, etc.

On-track behaviors include lack of consistency, excessive and large variations in throttle, brake or steering applications, spins or offs, not listening or arguing with the instructor or pit out person, blowing flags, speeding in the pit lane and paddock, disorientation, lack of spatial awareness, violating event rules, particularly passing rules, etc.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Professional, Private Driver Performance Analysis
Authorized Sales and Support for AiM Sports, VBOX Video, MoTeC, AutoSport Labs, RaceVoice LLC, Apex Pro and Cosworth Electronics
ProCoach is offline  
Old 09-09-2015, 11:25 PM
  #29  
Terry L
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Terry L's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 938
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Here are a few indicators we've seen for high risk drivers - don't laugh -
Blowing the horn while lined up at pit out when the car in front doesn't pull out smartly.
Pounding the steering wheel in frustration at the same point, even before the cars start to move.
Screaming into helmet when driver in front fails to give pass signal fast enough.
Not responding to instructor comments until the instructor commands loudly to PIT NOW OR YOU'RE DONE!
Terry L is offline  
Old 09-10-2015, 07:19 AM
  #30  
ProCoach
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Small Business Partner

 
ProCoach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 12,630
Received 46 Likes on 36 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Terry L View Post
Here are a few indicators we've seen for high risk drivers - don't laugh -
Blowing the horn while lined up at pit out when the car in front doesn't pull out smartly.
Pounding the steering wheel in frustration at the same point, even before the cars start to move.
Screaming into helmet when driver in front fails to give pass signal fast enough.
Not responding to instructor comments until the instructor commands loudly to PIT NOW OR YOU'RE DONE!
Sounds funny, but I've seen them all...
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Professional, Private Driver Performance Analysis
Authorized Sales and Support for AiM Sports, VBOX Video, MoTeC, AutoSport Labs, RaceVoice LLC, Apex Pro and Cosworth Electronics
ProCoach is offline  
 


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: R&T article: The Solution To Racing Instructor Deaths? Get Them Out Of The Car


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: